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[LeungRyu]

Originally Posted by desibeli

I'm with LeungRyu and Bobh on this one. I first encountered the concept of mushin some 30 years ago when I was a kid and thought ninja's were cool. What stood out in the concept was not so much being in the zone and automatic reaction, but rather undisturbed thought or undisturbed action; undisturbed my emotion and irrationality.

Another example is walking across a beam. If the beam is on the ground we can all do it. If the beam is 30 feet up in the air suddenly we cant, but nothing in the physical effort changed, except that we complicated the effort with lots thoughts about it.

To me it's not muscle memory, more "thought muscle memory". Just like doing a motion over and over builds muscle memory, exposing your self to a complicated situation over and over builds a clam and relaxed approach to the situation.

Well...to be fair it does get a little windy up there....

[desibeli]

It's a conceptual explanation :-)

Go to the pool. Go out on the 3 feet spring board and jump up and down. Then go out on the 10 feet spring board and do the same. You'll feel different and tense about falling in the water, even though you know you are going to jump in the water anyway and it will be totally harmless.

[powerof0ne]

I have to say I somewhat disagree. The key with mushin, at least for martial art purposes, is to be able to perform under "high stress," "combat situations," aka, a fight, or in a sporting tournament.

Being able to perform good looking technique in the dojo, in the air, I have known many that can do that. Put them under a situation where they have an opponent trying to punch in their face, and they seem to forget everything.

Now, the problem with it is, in a tournament, there are rules, so this would take some specialized training. In a fight, there are no rules, and before I ramble off on a tangent I'll stop there.

I'm still trying to be able to teach for competition and "real life," but the lines get blurred sometimes, and sometimes I need to be honest with myself, and ask myself, "is this for sporting purposes or real life"?
Osu!

[LeungRyu]

Originally Posted by desibeli

It's a conceptual explanation :-)

Go to the pool. Go out on the 3 feet spring board and jump up and down. Then go out on the 10 feet spring board and do the same. You'll feel different and tense about falling in the water, even though you know you are going to jump in the water anyway and it will be totally harmless.

Im just messing with you. I know what you mean...especially since I'm afraid of heights. I get REALLY nervous at altitude. Even on springboards.

[LeungRyu]

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

I have to say I somewhat disagree. The key with mushin, at least for martial art purposes, is to be able to perform under "high stress," "combat situations," aka, a fight, or in a sporting tournament.

Being able to perform good looking technique in the dojo, in the air, I have known many that can do that. Put them under a situation where they have an opponent trying to punch in their face, and they seem to forget everything.

Now, the problem with it is, in a tournament, there are rules, so this would take some specialized training. In a fight, there are no rules, and before I ramble off on a tangent I'll stop there.

I'm still trying to be able to teach for competition and "real life," but the lines get blurred sometimes, and sometimes I need to be honest with myself, and ask myself, "is this for sporting purposes or real life"?
Osu!

Well...considering what you said is essentially the same as what others have said, what part did you disagree with?

[powerof0ne]

Originally Posted by LeungRyu

Well...considering what you said is essentially the same as what others have said, what part did you disagree with?

I disagreed with your examples in your first post. I wouldn't call swimming, eating, etc. mushin, at least not in the context that pertains to martial arts.

I'm not one to nit pick but being able to perform basic tasks such as keeping your hands and lead shoulder up with your chin tucked while someone is throwing a lead left hook at you is different then sitting at home, eating dinner on a Sunday night while you watch TV.

Inexperienced fighters struggle with such basic tasks all the time, only the experienced fighter is able to do so without a moment's thought. To take it a step further, an experienced fighter would step forward with their lead left leg diagonally and throw a straight right before the lead left hook could land...or with a migi uchi momo geri. That is, if both fighters were orthodox fighters.
Osu!

[LeungRyu]

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

I disagreed with your examples in your first post. I wouldn't call swimming, eating, etc. mushin, at least not in the context that pertains to martial arts.

I'm not one to nit pick but being able to perform basic tasks such as keeping your hands and lead shoulder up with your chin tucked while someone is throwing a lead left hook at you is different then sitting at home, eating dinner on a Sunday night while you watch TV.

Inexperienced fighters struggle with such basic tasks all the time, only the experienced fighter is able to do so without a moment's thought. To take it a step further, an experienced fighter would step forward with their lead left leg diagonally and throw a straight right before the lead left hook could land...or with a migi uchi momo geri. That is, if both fighters were orthodox fighters.
Osu!

Ah, gotcha. Well going from what I was saying with other sports, trades, or skills is a little far from watching TV as you say. But the idea is action without thought in terms of varying tasks. Those examples were/are illustrating how other skill sets have like progressions where at first you're using 90% of your brain to get through the motion properly and / or when your mind is so full of noise that you can't just let things happen as they naturally should. It shows how releasing the mind of that noise allows you to move naturally.

So with physical skills...while in the beginning you're using up a lot of mental real estate, in time and through training you use less of your conscious faculties to achieve the same ends. Soon, the skill is so internalized that you have achieved a level that is described by the mentality of Mushin. Action without thought.

It's not solely a martial arts thing. You can achieve a level of no mindedness meditating. You can achieve a level of no mindedness when performing just about any type of physical skill in addition to fighting. Just as you would hitting a baseball with a bat, or learning to Ice Skate or learning to hit a golf ball to the green.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by LeungRyu

It's not solely a martial arts thing. You can achieve a level of no mindedness meditating. You can achieve a level of no mindedness when performing just about any type of physical skill in addition to fighting. Just as you would hitting a baseball with a bat, or learning to Ice Skate or learning to hit a golf ball to the green.

I'd concur here in the music performance space. I'd rather face up for a fight any day, than go out on a stage and perform in front of a critical crowd. So the mushin challenge is there - it is just emotional, not physical, and it is much, much harder to silence the demons within when you are not physically under attack. The physical attack creates a focus and a stimulus to at least start to replicate the habits of training. (and my experience is that the extreme fine motor control needed for music is much harder to hold together in a pressure -cooker than the gross movements of fighting).

[powerof0ne]

Originally Posted by LeungRyu

Ah, gotcha. Well going from what I was saying with other sports, trades, or skills is a little far from watching TV as you say. But the idea is action without thought in terms of varying tasks. Those examples were/are illustrating how other skill sets have like progressions where at first you're using 90% of your brain to get through the motion properly and / or when your mind is so full of noise that you can't just let things happen as they naturally should. It shows how releasing the mind of that noise allows you to move naturally.

So with physical skills...while in the beginning you're using up a lot of mental real estate, in time and through training you use less of your conscious faculties to achieve the same ends. Soon, the skill is so internalized that you have achieved a level that is described by the mentality of Mushin. Action without thought.

It's not solely a martial arts thing. You can achieve a level of no mindedness meditating. You can achieve a level of no mindedness when performing just about any type of physical skill in addition to fighting. Just as you would hitting a baseball with a bat, or learning to Ice Skate or learning to hit a golf ball to the green.

I'm not arguing that it's not solely a martial art thing, what I am saying, for the sake of context, pertaining to martial arts, it means under some pressure. I was simply stating using examples where there is no pressure, seems, a "bit off".
Osu!

[LeungRyu]

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

I'm not arguing that it's not solely a martial art thing, what I am saying, for the sake of context, pertaining to martial arts, it means under some pressure. I was simply stating using examples where there is no pressure, seems, a "bit off".
Osu!

So for clarification:

When a person is trying to break a brick slab, and can't because his mind is overworking the task and diluting his mental acuity, but then learns to empty his mind and simply perform the action...that's NOT an example of Mushin. However when a person is sparring, and can't get the movement right because his mind is overworking the task and diluting his mental acuity, but then learns to empty his mind and just react "naturally"...that IS an example of Mushin?

I believe there are varying levels of pressure...pressure can be physical, it can be mental, it can be emotional. It can be extrinsic or intrinsic. That's why I believe that it can exist within varying degrees even within the martial arts realm.

For example: You can think about how to mae geri by first getting into zenkutsu dachi, then raising the leg up, then making sure the toes are pulled back and foot is flexed, then snapping the kick out and retracting it, placing it down lightly with control. Or...you can just kick. One way has you thinking through the components, the other way has you simply acting with a clear mind. I also tend to think of mushin within the context of Zen thought, whereby action is just action. There's another phrase "Munen Muso" that basically means "where there's no intention there is no thought of doing". That's why I mentioned earlier that it's simply action/reaction.