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[LeungRyu]

So I'm looking over terminology trying to get a handle on the various names for the given techniques.

Seiken Jodan Tsuki is essentially a straight punch to the high gate, whereby the punch is chambered at the sides of the body and alternates with the punch being held in position at each count. Seiken Ago Uchi is also a straight punch to the high gate, but the chambering is done with the hands held high and to the sides with the elbows relaxed and vertical. The punch is thrown and retracted with each count.

To me, they're both straight punches, so why the need for creating 2 techniques when they're essentially the same punch less the chambering? And then why practice both when the Ago Uchi is the more prominently seen in Jiyu Kumite?

I recall learning when I was a youth that the chambering in a punch like the standard Seiken Tsuki was to simulate grabbing and pulling the persons arm at you punch with the other. Ago Uchi seems to be what you'd see more commonly if you're punching quickly without the intent of doing any grabbing or pulling them into your punches. Hence the reason why the hands are held high...to protect the face with the elbows down to protect the body. But in comparing the two, that's about all I could come up with as I'm karate sensei-less at the moment. Thoughts?

[polarbearfighter]

They have a very different feel in kihon, and you learn from both how to make your punches more powerful.
The goal of both are to learn how to use force from a larger part of your body rather than only force from your arms.

In kihon oi tsuki, you start with the non punching hand (hikite) stretched out and you learn/practise to make your punch powerful by pulling the non punching hand towards you and in that way using a larger part of your body to create a more powerful punch.

Ago tsuki you learn/practise how to make your punch powerful from that position. It's a bit harder to describe exactly how, but the goal is also to learn to use force larger part of your body.

Even though you would not punch exactly ago tsuki or oi tsuki (or gyaku tsuki) that during a fight, you'll learn and get the feel of how your body mechanics works and that will make your punches more powerful during fighting.



You can (and should) also use other ways to learn to make your punches more powerful. For example shadow boxing and punching a bag.

[Dent]

Osu!

In addition to PolarBearFighter's post, basic targeting is different. Ago Tsuki to the jaw, and Jodan Tsuki to the eye. Mechanics are different. From the hip rotation to the shoulder rotation. Use of the Latissimus Dorsi and Biceps are different.

Appearance is misleading. Mawashi Geri has many variations, some so different, that they really are only similar on the surface.

Osu!

[desibeli]

Isn't the ago tsuki like a jab and the reg tsuki like a punch? Seems to me they are the stylized versions of what you do in kumite.

[LeungRyu]

Originally Posted by polarbearfighter

They have a very different feel in kihon, and you learn from both how to make your punches more powerful.
The goal of both are to learn how to use force from a larger part of your body rather than only force from your arms.

In kihon oi tsuki, you start with the non punching hand (hikite) stretched out and you learn/practise to make your punch powerful by pulling the non punching hand towards you and in that way using a larger part of your body to create a more powerful punch.

Ago tsuki you learn/practise how to make your punch powerful from that position. It's a bit harder to describe exactly how, but the goal is also to learn to use force larger part of your body.

Even though you would not punch exactly ago tsuki or oi tsuki (or gyaku tsuki) that during a fight, you'll learn and get the feel of how your body mechanics works and that will make your punches more powerful during fighting.

You can (and should) also use other ways to learn to make your punches more powerful. For example shadow boxing and punching a bag.

That makes sense, I can see how the origin or the punch will affect the way the body develops power. In my experience all punches come from the core...the affiliated muscles that move the arm will be used slightly differently again in correspondence with the origin and destination of the punch, but IMO the constant is that power always comes from the ground and through the core. Would you say that's true as well in these punches?

Also something that stood out in your response that I bolded, can you elaborate on what you mean by NOT punching in lunge/reverse punch fashion during a fight?

And by the by, do you happen to know what the translation is for the Ago Uchi? What does the "Ago" part mean? Maybe that will help to understand the rationale behind it all. I also just realized I was using "seiken ago tsuki" instead of "seiken ago uchi" (which I've now corrected). Glad to see that
you all still knew what I was talking about even though I used the wrong term.

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

In addition to PolarBearFighter's post, basic targeting is different. Ago Tsuki to the jaw, and Jodan Tsuki to the eye. Mechanics are different. From the hip rotation to the shoulder rotation. Use of the Latissimus Dorsi and Biceps are different.

Appearance is misleading. Mawashi Geri has many variations, some so different, that they really are only similar on the surface.

Osu!

Thank you Dent. I knew they were both Jodan, but didn't think that there would be a specific target in mind for each punch type. I always thought the targets to the jodan area would naturally be to the ganmen, but that the specific vital spots would be chosen at the time of the strike (like the eye, temple, nose, manible, chin, etc).

Originally Posted by desibeli

Isn't the ago tsuki like a jab and the reg tsuki like a punch? Seems to me they are the stylized versions of what you do in kumite.

I thought the jab was known as kizami tsuki in Karate? In Boxing and Muay Thai, the jab generally doesn't have weight behind it (there are exceptions because there are several methods of jabbing) and is really used to feel and keep the opponent at bay, and to setup stronger punches and kicks.

In fact, the jab is quite a complicated punch in boxing circles and can vary greatly. Much like I'm seeing with Karate techniques. On the surface a jab is a jab to people that dont box, but with more intimate knowledge of the art, you learn the variations.

That's what I'm trying to figure out with movements like the jodan tsuki and ago uchi. They seem to both be straight punches to the high gate, but I dont know if there are variations, or varied intentions. I've learned a bit more from these responses though...so thanks to all thus far.

[desibeli]

Never heard of kizami tsuki, but you are right, that is referred to as a jab in karate. Is in practiced in kyokushin?

Not to argue, but D.C.Cook shows it as a "jab", albeit with a slight frontal movement. The text can be hard to read, it says "Seiken Ago Uchi is usually performed with the front hand. The fist is punched out and pulled back in a fast, snappy action. On contact the fist rotates 90deg".

Agreed; there are 50 versions of the jab just like there are 50 versions of mawashi geri.

[LeungRyu]

So in the simplest explanation, it's a punch that is simply thrown from the guard, as opposed to the hip or side.

From a kinesthetic point of view, the step forward or transition into a high zenkutsu dachi is meant to provide a little more power and range than doing it from a Sanchin or Heiko Dachi. Much like a power jab or a lead straight in boxing or muay thai. The placement of the arms in practicing Ago Uchi is actually pretty similar to the muay thai guard...a few inches foward and upward and they're the same.

I hear you on the mawashi geri. I've watched probably a thousand videos of KK and noticed sometimes it looked like a shotokan kick, a muay thai kick, a TKD kick. I noticed that some chamber the kick low, some chamber it sideways, some dont really chamber it at all, there's of course the instep, ball of foot, and the shin contact points, etc etc. Funny thing...in muay thai the front kicks are exactly the same as the mae keage, mae geri, and the mae geri kekomi. The Tad Te' (mawashi geri) in Muay Thai isn't never chambered, but can sometimes be kicked in a more forward manner with a bent leg. All in all same principles but mostly the shin and sometimes the instep as the contact point.

[LeungRyu]

Ok...I think I understand more about the terminology. I found out what Ago meant. (Thanks Dent for giving me insight into this).

Jodan Tsuki is basically defined as a punch (Tsuki) thrown to the neck or head area (Jodan). Whereas the Ago Uchi literally means a strike (uchi) to the chin/jaw (ago). So it seems to be rather than a name for a technique in terms of mechanics, more so a name describing the way the punch is supposed to be used. So by virtue of the names alone, a Jodan Tsuki can be an Ago Tsuki, but an Ago Uchi isn't necessarily a Jodan Tsuki.

If my understanding of the vocabulary is correct...an "ago kagi tsuki" would be a "hook punch to the jaw"?

Sound about right?

[seienchin]

LeungRyu.
The "Tsuki" bit refers to the driving through nature of the punch, whilst the "uchi" is a snapping strike.

In examining Kihon, I believe it is most useful to reflect on the skill that they develop. Kihon are, after all, just drills. Nobody actually does a classical gyaku tsuki in kumite! If you visit an elite swimming squad, you'll see all sorts of funny drills, (like one-armed swimming, "scratching the armpit", "freeze cycle" drills), but nobody proposes for one minute that those drills come out in the Olympic finals.

One of the differences (in my view) is that the ago uchi teaches you about speed and snap, whilst the Tsuki teaches you about retraction, hip movement, and "tame" - the coiling and sudden release of force.

This is even more apparent if you think about these in ido-geiko (moving basics), where the more advanced students practise "leaving the hip behind", only to snap it through as the punch and foot land. In ago uchi by contrast the focus is much more about speed. of course, both can benefit from elements of the other technique, but they teach and emphasise different things.

[MrWizard]

Seienchin pretty much said it all, but one additional point about the difference between Jodan Oi Tsuki and Ago Uchi is the use of 2 hands vs 1 hand. Since with a regular Oi Tsuki you use the non-punching hand to "pull", thus helping you get a twist in your torso and hips to promote power. Where as Ago Uchi teaches you how to throw a snap punch using only the punching hand for the movement (thus teaching you how to punch if you need to use the off-hand to hold something at bay for instance)

It's basically what Seienchin said, I just wanted to add the point of if being 1 hand vs 2 hands.

[FredInChina]

Great post Seienchin, Osu!

Originally Posted by seienchin

(...) The "Tsuki" bit refers to the driving through nature of the punch, whilst the "uchi" is a snapping strike. (...)

Is that because of the difference between a hard target that can be broken (jaw bone), vs. a soft, watery one like the abdomen where we try to send a wave through?

Are other "uchi" following that train of thoughts?


Osu!

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Great post Seienchin, Osu!



Is that because of the difference between a hard target that can be broken (jaw bone), vs. a soft, watery one like the abdomen where we try to send a wave through?

Are other "uchi" following that train of thoughts?


Osu!

Interesting thought, bu I don't think so - because we train a jodan tsuki as well, and last time I heard, there aren't too many soft watery faces...

I think this slips back into trying to find a "What can I use this for" mindset, when I think it should be about "what skills is it giving me". The gedan/chudan/jodan distinction gives targeting, demonstrates how a slight deviation at origin (shoulder) results in a markedly different arrival target (jodan vs chudan - only a few degrees), and it teaches about the difference between punching against gravity vs with it.

Think about uraken ganmen/shomen uchi, think about uraken ganmen uchi, vs jun tsuki. Each one of the basics is developing a skill, and if you understand what it teaches, you'll be able to "prescribe" drills to fix your own problems, and also those of your students.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by seienchin

The "Tsuki" bit refers to the driving through nature of the punch, whilst the "uchi" is a snapping strike.

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Are other "uchi" following that train of thoughts?

Yes, and no. Some do, and some don't. I find a better distinction to be the rotation prior to contact.

Osu!

[polarbearfighter]

Originally Posted by LeungRyu

Also something that stood out in your response that I bolded, can you elaborate on what you mean by NOT punching in lunge/reverse punch fashion during a fight?

I was thinking about the kihon version of oi tsuki and gyaku tsuki.
One doesn't use those during fights.

I should have written that thought more clearly.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by seienchin

Interesting thought, bu I don't think so - because we train a jodan tsuki as well, and last time I heard, there aren't too many soft watery faces...

I think this slips back into trying to find a "What can I use this for" mindset, when I think it should be about "what skills is it giving me". The gedan/chudan/jodan distinction gives targeting, demonstrates how a slight deviation at origin (shoulder) results in a markedly different arrival target (jodan vs chudan - only a few degrees), and it teaches about the difference between punching against gravity vs with it.

Think about uraken ganmen/shomen uchi, think about uraken ganmen uchi, vs jun tsuki. Each one of the basics is developing a skill, and if you understand what it teaches, you'll be able to "prescribe" drills to fix your own problems, and also those of your students.

Thank you Seienchin.
Aren't jodan Tsuki and chudan Tsuki a bit different in the katas?
Take taikyoku sono ichi vs sono ni, there is more to the difference in the punch than just the angle of the shoulder and the location of the impact; the desired effect of the impact on target is built in the differences, isn't it?

OSu!

Originally Posted by Dent

Yes, and no. Some do, and some don't. I find a better distinction to be the rotation prior to contact.

Ahhhh, I am going to ask you if you can elaborate Dent Sensei, but as it might become a bit complicated to describe with words, it is also okay that we made note of this as a topic for our next training together.


So many more questions than answers............


OSu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Ahhhh, I am going to ask you if you can elaborate Dent Sensei, but as it might become a bit complicated to describe with words, it is also okay that we made note of this as a topic for our next training together.


So many more questions than answers............

Phew!

Certainly.

That's always the way, FredInChina. I have two major questions from this morning's training.

Osu!

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Thank you Seienchin.
Aren't jodan Tsuki and chudan Tsuki a bit different in the katas?
Take taikyoku sono ichi vs sono ni, there is more to the difference in the punch than just the angle of the shoulder and the location of the impact; the desired effect of the impact on target is built in the differences, isn't it?

OSu!

I don't understand what you mean here - can you please elaborate so I can answer?

[FredInChina]

Thank you Sensei, I am making a note so we can get over that together

Osu!

Originally Posted by seienchin

I don't understand what you mean here - can you please elaborate so I can answer?

Certainly Dear Seienchin
It is simply that the jodan and chudan punches are not the same; rotation, kime, impact are different, not just the angle at the shoulder and the location in space of the impact.


Osu!

[desibeli]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

TIt is simply that the jodan and chudan punches are not the same; rotation, kime, impact are different, not just the angle at the shoulder and the location in space of the impact.

Can you help me understand more specifically where they are different? I tend to perform the 3 targets the exact same way apart from the height.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by desibeli

Can you help me understand more specifically where they are different? I tend to perform the 3 targets the exact same way apart from the height.

Ask your Sensei...
......... Seriously, in writing?


Osu!