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[Ros]

Originally Posted by bobh

Well, that behavior should be unacceptable for anyone in the dojo. If you have a karateka looking for a fight it is bad self-defense, bad form, and indicative of bad judgement.

I agree, but there seems little point having rules if they can't be policed. How would a sensei ever find out? Would the rule apply to someone who got into a fight full-stop or just someone looking for a fight? What if your student had another side to the story? It just seems fraught with problems.

I'm sure my parents did things they wouldn't want me to do, but that doesn't keep them from the responsibility or desire to teach me what is better. Certainly I do not want my children to repeat my mistakes. They might, in fact, but that doesn't keep me from trying to impart a better way.

Parent-child is a very different relationship from instructor-adult student.

But why is there such a strong feeling that another person has no right to suggest how someone else should behave? Certainly I don't think that any karate student has to stay in the dojo and listen to anything if they don't want to. That's their prerogative.

I really think that if I'm not breaking any laws, what I do in my own time is my own business. I don't expect my karate instructor to suggest how I might behave and why would he want to?

I've taken a semi-scientific approach at times and have actually posted online surveys (anonymous) for students to find out what they are getting from the dojo, what they want more/less of, and how they think I/we are doing in various ways. More than a fair share have asked about philosophy and mediation (as examples) in addition to their physical training. I don't claim to be a yogi or philosopher, but I'm willing to impart what has been given to me and what I've been taught... at least those things that have served me well in my life.

If that's what your students are after, great. I assume you would do those at a different time to training and it would be optional. Although now I come to think about it, some philosophical training might be a great opportunity for some 'discussion.'

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by Ros

(...) there seems little point having rules if they can't be policed (...)

To the contrary Ros, at the very least, it sends the message of where the boundary is to train in that dojo and might prevent problems before they occur, or deter trouble seekers from registering in the first place.
It also makes it easy to enforce and set an example once facts have shown that a fight has been entered... At that moment, exclusion from the dojo is simply a matter of enforcing the rule, and not setting some sort of decision out of the blue that may be taken as arbitrary.


Osu!

[Spirit]

Choking back the vomit here.............. I totally agree with Ros.
I guess there are such things as miracles, well maybe not but opposites can agree


I have no control over a student, nor did any sensei have control over me. My old instructor was a cop, and was so pissed off when I started bouncing at a local night club yards from the dojo.
He even went up and down on me in there office at the dojo, I told him unless he was going to pay me $40 a night to teach I'm working at the club. He never paid me even though he said he would!!! I keep working at the club.

The great part of working at the club I got to street fight/brawl just about every weekend and made money from the cops working the door (they would bet on me … who I would fight with and how it would end). Learned how to fight against multi people, knives and guns. Now that is great kumite training, sure miss being 20

That same sensei went to court to speak in favor of a student who got arrested for selling cocaine and attempted murder on a federal agent (remember he was a cop). The student went to jail for 3 ½ years and the sensei stayed friends with that student. Was he wrong, I’d say no (mainly because that student was my close friend)

I never sold drugs, he did & I knew he did and I still taught him as well hung out with him. He was and still is a great guy and friend. We are free thinking humans, we make our own decisions and act on what and how “WE” feel is best for us and/or stand with our friends.

So to honestly answer your question Chris, Yes and No….
Yes, if the person was someone I like
No, if I did not like the person

That is the honest answer not the PC answer most would give.
I personally feel that karate and writing essay have no common connection. I do believe that each sensei “should” try to promote a balanced student base and at the very least try to be a person who leads by example as best they can.


Plus I would be a Hypocrite if I did anything different

[FredInChina]

I now believe that flexibility has many more meanings in Martial Arts!
Thank you for being so forthright Spirit.


Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Thanks for being so clear, Spirit!

Osu!

[bobh]

Originally Posted by Ros

I agree, but there seems little point having rules if they can't be policed. How would a sensei ever find out? Would the rule apply to someone who got into a fight full-stop or just someone looking for a fight? What if your student had another side to the story? It just seems fraught with problems.

I'm glad we agree. If rules cannot always be enforced, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be there. Speed limits and taxes come to mind.

And things like that are fraught with problems, yes. But if rules are there... and then they are broken and subsequently enforced, no one can say they did not know. And when you get a ticket for speeding, your complaint that the other guy was speeding doesn't change that you broke the rule.

Originally Posted by Ros

Parent-child is a very different relationship from instructor-adult student.

Yeah, I realize this. I sometimes reach for analogies and they usually fall short, but there's usually some applicable parallels. I didn't mean to imply a parent-child relationship == sensei-student.

Originally Posted by Ros

I really think that if I'm not breaking any laws, what I do in my own time is my own business. I don't expect my karate instructor to suggest how I might behave and why would he want to?

I think either way is fine. I don't see anything wrong with an instructor that stays away from any suggestions of proper behavior out of the dojo. I don't see anything wrong with an instructor that offers lessons on philosophy and morals. I think the student votes with his/her feet. If you don't like one, find another; it's simple.

Originally Posted by Ros

If that's what your students are after, great. I assume you would do those at a different time to training and it would be optional. Although now I come to think about it, some philosophical training might be a great opportunity for some 'discussion.'

It's not that different than the discussions we have here. And I don't pontificate or give lots of "though shalt" and "ought nots." I talk about things that have served me well in my life.

One example I think most can agree on: tempering the ego. This really is important for self-defense. If you wish to avoid confrontation, and keep from escalating the "monkey dance." So, suggesting why you might want to behave one way or avoid other behavior, there's some good stuff to be found from all leading self-defense expert on the subject (Geoff Thompson, Rory Miller).

It's also a good example for the other side of the argument in that lots of instructors have quite a problem with this. ;-)

Osu

[Ros]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Choking back the vomit here.............. I totally agree with Ros.

Don't fight it Spirit, it happens to most eventually! (Hey, I'm kidding)

Originally Posted by bobh

One example I think most can agree on: tempering the ego. This really is important for self-defense. If you wish to avoid confrontation, and keep from escalating the "monkey dance." So, suggesting why you might want to behave one way or avoid other behavior, there's some good stuff to be found from all leading self-defense expert on the subject (Geoff Thompson, Rory Miller).

Yes, but I think there is a big difference in suggesting one might want to behave in a certain manner to avoid X happening, and mandating that one has to behave in a 'proper' fashion to become a shodan.

[FighterforLife]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!





The Sensei is ultimately responsible for their own actions, which in this case includes who they choose to teach.



Osu!

Dent, I see you're speaking about a specific incident. But if I can, I'd like to address the larger notion.

If we take out extreme examples (such as a sensei encouraging or goading students to pick fights, etc) then I cant see that it is the sensei's fault if the student goes all "dark side" and starts lightsaber-ing younglings.

I mean, if I were to pick a fight with someone and really trash the guy, can I truly say that it is my instructor's fault simply because he taught me the physical tools? I just don't see that. Blood on my hands is blood on MY hands.

I dont think that responsibility of action is transferable to those who teach (again, taking out examples like above).

Just my $0.02


Osu!

[kanku]

As we are going slightly off thread:

There was a guy in England i believe called Dickie Wu who used to go into the roughest pubs in London and take on those who "wanted it"...common knowledge at the time that he did this....i don`t think any disciplinary measures were taken against him by our founding fathers in the U.K.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by FighterforLife

I mean, if I were to pick a fight with someone and really trash the guy, can I truly say that it is my instructor's fault simply because he taught me the physical tools? I just don't see that. Blood on my hands is blood on MY hands.

I dont think that responsibility of action is transferable

Good call, FighterforLife. Clarification is needed.

I don't think the majority of the responsibility falls on the instructor, but at least a part. How much is dependent on the education of the student. If I choose not to hold them responsible for their training and their actions, then a greater share of the responsibility is mine.

Osu!

[FighterforLife]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



Good call, FighterforLife. Clarification is needed.

I don't think the majority of the responsibility falls on the instructor, but at least a part. How much is dependent on the education of the student. If I choose not to hold them responsible for their training and their actions, then a greater share of the responsibility is mine.

Osu!

Thats a very interesting viewpoint. I think, perhaps, you and I feel it this way because I am a student, whereas you are a teacher.

I think, after imagining myself as an instructor with a class full of eager students, I could very easily see me finding fault in myself if a student were go off the reservation on somebody and I did not teach that "there is no first strike in karate" (speaking of virtues, of course, not tactics).


Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by FighterforLife

Thats a very interesting viewpoint. I think, perhaps, you and I feel it this way because I am a student, whereas you are a teacher.

I think, after imagining myself as an instructor with a class full of eager students, I could very easily see me finding fault in myself if a student were go off the reservation on somebody and I did not teach that "there is no first strike in karate" (speaking of virtues, of course, not tactics).

I think you are 100% correct, FighterforLife! Repped!

Osu!

[jcarmello]

Originally Posted by FighterforLife

"there is no first strike in karate" (speaking of virtues, of course, not tactics).


Osu!

OSU!

I believe that this is a miss interpreted statement amongst karateka. I never once thought of it as "Dont strike until stricken" but rather "Don't start any static, won't be any static."

[FighterforLife]

Originally Posted by jcarmello

OSU!

I believe that this is a miss interpreted statement amongst karateka. I never once thought of it as "Dont strike until stricken" but rather "Don't start any static, won't be any static."

Yes. Like you, I've always thought that the axiom was meant to convey a virtuous principle, rather than dictate that the karateka should ALWAYS be struck first.

[Spirit]

I truly dis-like disagreeing with others, but it is very difficult to have a level and timely conversation via a keyboard....

Some of us have had clean lives and others have not.
Some of us Karate was more than just an Art, the dojo was our escape from reality of our lives.

Some of us used Karate as a family, a brother, a father, or a mother...
We who have done such thing often see Karate in a different light that does not mean our view is correct, just much different.

We are (most of the time) all are correct about how and what we feel about Karate.

Often debating how we feel in the cold space of the web is not always healthy for the subject.
OSU

Originally Posted by FredInChina

I now believe that flexibility has many more meanings in Martial Arts!
Thank you for being so forthright Spirit.


Osu!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Some of us used Karate as a family, a brother, a father, or a mother... We who have done such thing often see Karate in a different light that does not mean our view is correct, just much different.

Very true, i realised a long time ago on one of k4l`s famous predecessors (hosted in australia) that views about karate in general and kyokushin in specific differ with where someone comes from. For me this partly has similarities with the nature versus nurture debat. Some might accept these differences as a given and step over them to discus the point at hand. But actually realising someone comes from a different country, or a different part of the world and trying to step in their shoes before commenting on their post isnt often done (i suspect). Knowing someones background and understanding it will in a lot of cases give more meaning to their points of view. It surely did help me understand the arguments they were making.

[FighterforLife]

So I've got a kyu test today and I just found out there is a written portion. Questions will include vocabulary, trivia ("who is mas oyama?" etc), and a few introspective questions like "what does kyokushin mean to me?".



The vocabulary and trivia are marginally acceptable, in my opinion; after all, every one of us should know who Sosai was and the difference between a yoko geri and a yoko keage geri.

But to require me to define what kyokushin means to me personally........ugh. I am strongly considering writing down something satirical or ridiculous. Perhaps saying it is important to get stronger so that I can defeat Frieza or something.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by FighterforLife

So I've got a kyu test today and I just found out there is a written portion. Questions will include vocabulary, trivia ("who is mas oyama?" etc), and a few introspective questions like "what does kyokushin mean to me?".

The vocabulary and trivia are marginally acceptable, in my opinion; after all, every one of us should know who Sosai was and the difference between a yoko geri and a yoko keage geri.

But to require me to define what kyokushin means to me personally........ugh. I am strongly considering writing down something satirical or ridiculous. Perhaps saying it is important to get stronger so that I can defeat Frieza or something.

Couple of ways to play that - you could just write "It's a way to get my heart rate up that isn't boring", or you could write "It's the answer to all of my life's problems, and I now know that if it wasn't for Kyokushin I would be a derelict lying in a gutter somewhere. Kyokushin has saved my life, my sanity and my integrity". Depends on how much fun you want to have, and how far into your cheek you wish to push your tongue! (or, third path....you could tell the truth???)

[FighterforLife]

Originally Posted by seienchin

Couple of ways to play that - you could just write "It's a way to get my heart rate up that isn't boring", or you could write "It's the answer to all of my life's problems, and I now know that if it wasn't for Kyokushin I would be a derelict lying in a gutter somewhere. Kyokushin has saved my life, my sanity and my integrity". Depends on how much fun you want to have, and how far into your cheek you wish to push your tongue! (or, third path....you could tell the truth???)

Truth:

1. I like knowing I have a better chance of beating someone up than I had before I started Kyokushin.
2. It is a tremendous work out (brings me close to throwing up every now and then).
3. It is a tangible way for me to measure my perseverance and achievement.

The way it sounds, though, I think they're wanting one of those "as confucious says" answers. Maybe I'll just take your advice and go with my 3rd answer (even though the Frieza remark is painfully tempting).

[gc33]

Originally Posted by FighterforLife

Truth:

1. I like knowing I have a better chance of beating someone up than I had before I started Kyokushin.
2. It is a tremendous work out (brings me close to throwing up every now and then).
3. It is a tangible way for me to measure my perseverance and achievement.

The way it sounds, though, I think they're wanting one of those "as confucious says" answers. Maybe I'll just take your advice and go with my 3rd answer (even though the Frieza remark is painfully tempting).

No right or wrong answers Fighter4life....those 3 y0ou have just put down are good honest answers. not forgetting that the ones who will be reading your answers/essays are "ones that have been before" and with more experience. Dont try to baffle with B.S. or blind them with science....be honest with yourself and them. Even if it is how you feel about essays