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[seienchin]

I have written elsewhere about my foray into kickboxing, and how impressed I am with the speed with which students become adept and strong at punches and kicks (especially roundhouse and knees). It has caused me to do a bit of soul searching about the approach we taken in Kyokushin, and the many years of training we take to reach yudansha ranks. If it's all about kicking and punching and winning tournament fights, why are we not taking a more pragmatic approach like my good friends at the kickboxing gym?

There is NO self-defence training at the kickboxing gym where I train. No groundwork, no grabs, no takedowns, no bodyweight leverage/throwing exercises, no "sticky hands" drills, and naturally, no kata. There is very little time invested in flexibilty, and none at all in the "inner game". but I remain very impressed with how effectively they fight - in a ring, by the rules.

Doing some freestyle grappling with one of the top female fighters there last week, gave me pause to think about all the stuff I think we take for granted in the kyokushin syllabus. Not the "grading" syllabus, but the stuff that a rounded education of years of training night after night gets you.

Because I don't habitually train in gloves, I have an awareness of my hands as something other than clubs with which to bludgeon someone. I can pinch, twist, poke, gouge and punch.

Because I don't train only for tournaments, I have skills in controlling another person's limbs and bodyweight, and I have an understanding of how my own transfer of weight can be an advantage or a drawback.

Because I don't train for only one set of rules, I can draw on a broad repertoire. And because my training was as much about training my mind as my body, my mind sees possibilities for attack even if I've never executed it, through disciplined visualisation in kata practice. My opponent was genuinely shocked when I demonstrated that I could have taken out her clavicle with a descending elbow. Not in the normal tournament repertoire for kickboxing, so not on the radar.

I am really enjoying my training in kickboxing - it has reinvigorated my love of kicking and punching and just hitting hard. My head/hand skills are improving every week, and it is a nice rounding out of my skills. The constant motion of kicking and punching means it is a much more efficient use of my time in terms of workout, because there is no standing around explaining stuff. It is great, and I am addicted. On reflection, though, I would not say that training in kickboxing was any kind of self protection training. It is a fine way of keeping fit, and an invigorating sport and self-development for those who want it.

IF we only train in the dojo for tournament rules, aren't we robbing our students (and ourselves) of the rich menu of "everything else". Knockdown is not the total world of karate, but sometimes, the way we behave, it seems it is the only part that gets any kudos or recognition.

How much of the "other stuff" are you getting? Or is your dojo basically a kickboxing gym without the gloves?

[meguro]

Originally Posted by seienchin

How much of the "other stuff" are you getting? Or is your dojo basically a kickboxing gym without the gloves?

Great post, seienchin. Repped.

[Okamido]

A very interesting thread!

Obviously not all Kickboxing gyms are the same, as some also run a grading syllabus as part of their programs - which generally include self-defence training etc.

www.warrington-kickboxing-latest-news.com

But admittedly many, especially those focused purely on Thai-Kickboxing, tend to just train for the ring.

Osu!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I have written elsewhere about my foray into kickboxing, and how impressed I am with the speed with which students become adept and strong at punches and kicks (especially roundhouse and knees).

That's my experience too. Where I train now, 100% of the training is with a partner, either sparring, sparring with themes, practicing drills with pads... The timer is on all the time, and the instructor show the drills during rest time. Even warm up is very light sparring.

People stretch, do push up and sit up at the end of the training, and may warm up by themselves before the training start.

I also like that there are no belts. Some people learn faster, and go to the advanced class sooner (as long as they know the basics and can sustain the training). Some more experienced people prefer to keep it easy and go to the beginner class. Some fight, some not, there's no pressure.

I find this type of training much more efficient, pragmatic and healthy than karate. There's more focus on what is important, and less on the cosmetics. Not unlike judo training I found (even though Judo is japanese, the training is very pragmatic and more casual).

So yes, the question is what is lost? the ambiance, the diversity of the training.

And obviously, there are no kihon and kata. I think there are two (non-exclusive) options. Some people may enjoy them, for the sake of them. And other think they help them for fighting or self defense.

[Dent]

Osu!

Judging by Friday's class, we are a long way from a non-SP school. Open session, any and all questions taken and worked through. Weapons and multiple attackers a big issue, as these are apparently a reality for those in attendance.

What I find revealing was that this was my youth class. So, what's the real message there...?

Osu!

[SteveK]

This is a very good thread and thought provoking (maybe in line for post of the month ??)

[slaine]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

Judging by Friday's class, we are a long way from a non-SP school. Open session, any and all questions taken and worked through. Weapons and multiple attackers a big issue, as these are apparently a reality for those in attendance.

What I find revealing was that this was my youth class. So, what's the real message there...?

Osu!

OSU Dent , I think the message is self explanatory and something I come up against on an almost daily basis , teaching adults to look after themselves is one thing but trying to get kids/youths to be responsible for their own self protection is a different ball game .

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by meguro

Great post, seienchin. Repped.

Thanks Meguro. It sprinboards off a couple of other threads that have been growing of late.

Originally Posted by Okamido

A very interesting thread!

Obviously not all Kickboxing gyms are the same, as some also run a grading syllabus as part of their programs - which generally include self-defence training etc.

www.warrington-kickboxing-latest-news.com

But admittedly many, especially those focused purely on Thai-Kickboxing, tend to just train for the ring.

Osu!

Thanks Okamido. My Kickboxing exposure is very, very limited, and I am pleased that there are some who take a broader route.

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

Judging by Friday's class, we are a long way from a non-SP school. Open session, any and all questions taken and worked through. Weapons and multiple attackers a big issue, as these are apparently a reality for those in attendance.

What I find revealing was that this was my youth class. So, what's the real message there...?

Osu!

That's just scary, particularly if you have a young'un of your own.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That's my experience too. Where I train now, 100% of the training is with a partner, either sparring, sparring with themes, practicing drills with pads... The timer is on all the time, and the instructor show the drills during rest time. .....

I also like that there are no belts. Some people learn faster, and go to the advanced class sooner (as long as they know the basics and can sustain the training). Some more experienced people prefer to keep it easy and go to the beginner class. Some fight, some not, there's no pressure.

I find this type of training much more efficient, pragmatic and healthy than karate. There's more focus on what is important, and less on the cosmetics. Not unlike judo training I found (even though Judo is japanese, the training is very pragmatic and more casual).

So yes, the question is what is lost? the ambiance, the diversity of the training.
.

Sounds like your gym could be a clone of mine. And you have more succinctly put the question. What is sacrificed to gain this efficiency?

Originally Posted by SteveK

This is a very good thread and thought provoking (maybe in line for post of the month ??)

Thanks. It's been eating away at me for a few weeks, so it's nice to get some other perspectives, instead of talking to myself!

[Okamido]

Okami-Dojo syllabus is

K-1, Kudo, Kakuto = Kickboxing, MMA, Self-Defence.

I hope to comple the three 'K's eventually with a 4th...Kendo!

Osu!

[andrewkyokushin]

I was brought up in Kyokushin and tapped into a few other martial arts such as kickboxing, boxing, tang soo do, tae kwon do and aikido. after training in these disciplines, I found flaws in all of them but found that each other martial art contributed to filling in the 'gaps' so to speak. (not saying i am a complete fighter - far from it haha)

As mentioned, kickboxing is great for fitness and learning how to throw the basic punches, knees and kicks...and to do it well. BUT - it can become difficult for instructors to develop self discipline and control to their members in a martial art that many regard as a 'sport'. I have a friend who is a kick boxer, and the confidence he has found in it was great to see, but now i can see personality changes that seem to be pushing arrogance, over confidence....something that reminds to me of those 'meet head' guys you find dominating and grunting in front of the local gym mirror-lol.
Just like any other style, if you train only within the limitations of your discipline, then there will always be flaws...and Sosai new this - that is why and how Kyokushin was developed.

I always kept Kyokushin as my primary martial art as it gave me a grounding, a understanding, a balance that included and promoted reflection, helping me to understand the consequences of my actions, a peace & calm to understand my surrounding and myself as well as how to fight hard, dojo fighting (which can be emotional :-)), competition fighting, and street practicality training/scenario's, not to mention that my sensei introduced great conditioning that went outside the traditional frame that's conducted around the traditional dojo world.

Bottom line: We learn from others and make it work/adapt it for our own needs and strengths. one style is not superior to the other, its a matter of what people are looking for. Hence Kyokushin now has Ichigeki etc - karate/kickboxing for those karateka who want to have training and fighting diversity without leaving their foundation.

Is it better to master something and then move on to learn another skill or discipline, or to sample many at the same time struggle to attain the level of skill and competency you desire to be effective? I have just left the IKO Matsui, and to answer this question I can see that that organisation are changing things, trying to move forward by incorporating weapon training etc. But again, It depends on what the participant is looking for.

An important factor is (thinking about it), that as Kyokushin and many other martial arts is about people development (mind/body/spirit). Sport martial arts such as kickboxing may only focus on one or two of these areas

Osu

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by slaine

OSU Dent , I think the message is self explanatory and something I come up against on an almost daily basis , teaching adults to look after themselves is one thing but trying to get kids/youths to be responsible for their own self protection is a different ball game .

Do you mean that it's harder to get kids to realize their vulnerability than adults? It used to be that was for me too, but right now it seems to be the other way around. Adults overconfident in their environment, and kids who are acutely aware of the risks attached in simply going to school.

Originally Posted by seienchin

That's just scary, particularly if you have a young'un of your own.

Two of those in the class are mine. And the questions were/ are troubling me. I've kept them out of the local public schools so that they (in theory) wouldn't have to face the level of violence they are discussing so matter-of-factly. This this is taking place in spite of my precautions........... Well, you get the picture.

Osu!

[slaine]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



Do you mean that it's harder to get kids to realize their vulnerability than adults? It used to be that was for me too, but right now it seems to be the other way around. Adults overconfident in their environment, and kids who are acutely aware of the risks attached in simply going to school.



Two of those in the class are mine. And the questions were/ are troubling me. I've kept them out of the local public schools so that they (in theory) wouldn't have to face the level of violence they are discussing so matter-of-factly. This this is taking place in spite of my precautions........... Well, you get the picture.

Osu!

OSU Dent , my take on your observation was that that's the reality for kids in todays society , violence is now an integral part of growing up .

[Okamido]

Originally Posted by andrewkyokushin

...As mentioned, kickboxing is great for fitness and learning how to throw the basic punches, knees and kicks...and to do it well. BUT - it can become difficult for instructors to develop self discipline and control to their members in a martial art that many regard as a 'sport'.

A lot of gyms that are setup as 'Combat-Sports' rather than 'Martial-Arts' schools suffer from this. Especially Thai-Kickboxing or M.M.A. gyms in my area ( Manchester / England ).

The main reason is that they have an 'open' attitude to uniform, letting people wear what ever they wish, as opposed to a uniform or 'team/camp colours'. The next and as equally a reason is that a ranking structure is usually not evident, be it via a coloured belt, coloured armband or coloured vest/top ( mentioned as some gyms do use ).

I do not wish to sound like I am trumpet blowing, but my school is one of the most successful in my region and I constantly get asked for advice by dojo operators for advice. Strict uniform, and a strict attitude to grade-rank being shown at all time is my advice.


I will try and upload some photos via imageshak to show what we use for, Kickboxing, for M.M.A. and for Kudo / Kakuto - Selfdefence training.





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Osu!

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by slaine

OSU Dent , my take on your observation was that that's the reality for kids in todays society , violence is now an integral part of growing up .

I realize that it is your reality, and unfortunately that of too many people in the "free world"...
It has not been my experience in Asia!


Osu!

[Okamido]

From my experience, M.M.A. as a combat-sport seems to have the biggest problem with discipline, having a uniform and rank, but it can be done in the same way as a Karate school.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




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Osu!

[slaine]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

I realize that it is your reality, and unfortunately that of too many people in the "free world"...
It has not been my experience in Asia!


Osu!

OSU Fred , thanks for the correction , I am aware that this is not true for everyone and everyones children and it does depend on where you live and am only to delighted to know that in other parts of the world children are growing up as they should free of this problem , that gives me hope .

[sandman]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

I realize that it is your reality, and unfortunately that of too many people in the "free world"...
It has not been my experience in Asia!


Osu!

It has not been my experience either, not from my own childhood, and from what I see not in my kids' schools (granted my kids are very young, but a number of our neighbors have middle school and high school age kids and there does not seem to be a problem from their perspectives).

Not everything is bad in the free world

[Dent]

Osu!

Very nice, Okamido! I think you've certainly got the formula right.

Originally Posted by slaine

OSU Dent , my take on your observation was that that's the reality for kids in todays society , violence is now an integral part of growing up .

It was where I went to high school, but I had hoped I'd got my kids out of that, but this is a parochial school, with one in middle school, and another in elementary. The reality is that the school might be ok, but the kids roaming the neighborhoods have been brought up on a steady diet of adoration and excess, with a lack of responsibility and consequences. That's a dangerous combination.

Originally Posted by sandman

It has not been my experience either, not from my own childhood, and from what I see not in my kids' schools (granted my kids are very young, but a number of our neighbors have middle school and high school age kids and there does not seem to be a problem from their perspectives).

Do you have access to your local PD, Sandman? You might be surprised at what is happening in your schools.

Osu!

[slaine]

Originally Posted by sandman

It has not been my experience either, not from my own childhood, and from what I see not in my kids' schools (granted my kids are very young, but a number of our neighbors have middle school and high school age kids and there does not seem to be a problem from their perspectives).

Not everything is bad in the free world

Well then that begs the question , whether in the free world or not why is this problem more prevalent in some areas than others , I'm not trying to paint a bad picture of Dublin as there are plenty of areas in the small county of Dublin where this is not much of an issue either , unfortunately where I live it's a very big issue and only getting worse .

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by slaine

Well then that begs the question , whether in the free world or not why is this problem more prevalent in some areas than others .

I've got a theory. Purpose. When we lack purpose, the mind goes to a negative place. When large groups lack purpose, the effect is magnified.

Osu!