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[Khaosan]

I've been reading a lot over the last few days regarding how certain styles/orgs came to be such as Ashihara/Enshin are Kyokushin off-shoots etc.. my question is has there ever been any knockdown focused styles that are off shoots from Thai Boxing rather than just other styles of Karate? I would have assumed that some long time Muay Thai guys may have formed their own organization/style that employed the principles of Muay Thai of simple yet effective striking into a knockdown style format and competed in knockdown under their own off-shoot org?? Such as using the MT round house, knees, low kicks and elbows to the body in knockdown (minus the clinching), instead of focusing on a more karate style based attack that consists of a lot of axe kicks, spinning kicks and karate style of kicking.

Has this ever existed? I'm a long time MT guy looking to get into knockdown (kyokushin/ashihara etc) but I am so use to the training methods of MT style fighting and the style itself that practicing kata, doing breaking etc is so out of my element that I was day dreaming about an org that may have based itself off of a non-karate style for knockdown. If there has never been something like this, is there a certain reason? Training in a dogi bareknuckled with Thai boxing style training could produce some devastating knockdown fighters in my opinion.

Thoughts? Osu!

[Dobbersky]

I wouldn't say off-shot, I would rather say predecessor in Muay Boran!

Muay Boran was as you described. The only off-shots of Muay Thai is Kick boxing!

Ashihara and Enshin are probably the closest you can get to "bare knuckle" kick boxing although I'm not to sure what Japanese kick boxing is like compared to American & European Kick boxing (the last 2 don't like thigh kicks)

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Khaosan

Such as using the MT round house, knees, low kicks and elbows to the body in knockdown (minus the clinching), instead of focusing on a more karate style based attack that consists of a lot of axe kicks, spinning kicks and karate style of kicking.

Thoughts? Osu!

Not sure about using the MT round house, I think a lot of peoples Jodan MW is quite similar anyway.... and I know there have been a lot of debates as to which is stronger so lets not do that...but we use knee's, elbows and of course low kicks.

Thoughts? I know of a few training facilities set up more like a MT gyms than traditional dojos and they produce very good fighters as there whole focus is on the sport rather than the wider art. I see no issue with this, you can always attend a local dojo on another night or once your fighting days are over.

The issue however is grades, we only grade based on syllabus knowledge not fighting ability and this I think restricts the practice of being 100% knockdown focused. For me if you can demonstrate 2+ years of training you're good to go but for some they insist on a set grade for the tournament, even Daniel-san had to 'borrow' a black belt in Karate Kid didn't he?

[nntp]

haha indeed he did and so did I. My shihan would rather focus on producing fighters and work on fighting techniques and kihon for self defence than katas. Our gradings are entirely kihon and kumite (KD style, kickboxing and some randori as he says that knowing grappling is important for self defence as well).

As for MT offshoot, i don't think so. not to my knowledge at least. I know that different schools and kru put emphasis on different strategy and weapons. some prefer clinch work, others prefer lots of hand and some prefer to work on keeping the distance with the teep, and midkick. The only real offshoot i see would be japanese and euro kickboxing where both have been heavily influenced by kyokushin and Muay Thai. I know there is a little bit of Savate in eurokick but thats all the offshoot i know of. american kickboxing has no MT influence at all and does not come from kyokushin, it comes from another karate style as all the kicks are above the waist and the kicks are done almost shotokan and taekwondo style.

I hope i was helpful.

[Khaosan]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses so far. I may have worded my OP incorrectly as I didn't mean necessarily styles of fighting that are off-shoots of Muay Thai, but more Off-shoots of Muay Thai that are karate/knockdown styles now. As an example to clarify, I am a MT guy who wants in Karate because after all these years I need more on my journey as a martial artists, so pretend I say okay I love and believe in Muay Thai techniques and style of training but I need more budo spirit, training in a gi to simulate clothes better for self defense and want to compete in knockdown so I create my own organization and compete in knockdown and train my students for knockdown but using muay thai techniques in a gi. See what I mean? That is hypothetical of course but that is what I meant by a Muay Thai off-shoot for knockdown, like a karate style based ON Thai boxing techniques and training. Thanks for your posts so far they have been great.

Osu!

[ItalianTankATT]

check out Daido Juku, osu

[SteveK]

Originally Posted by ItalianTankATT

check out Daido Juku, osu

I have watched Daido Juku - I think it has a lot going for it from what I have seen - would be interested to get some posts from people who have trained in it or had experience in it

[Khaosan]

Originally Posted by ItalianTankATT

check out Daido Juku, osu

I would give anything to be able to train DJ but it's no where in my country so not an option which sucks!

[ItalianTankATT]

How about Shidokan? It seems that they use some kickboxing techniques.

[nntp]

well kyokushin and muay thai are rather similar. they are both hard styles as opposed to soft styles like aikido and tai chi. Both emphasize on body conditioning so you will feel at home at most kyokushin dojos. You will learn a little bit more kicking techniques to widen your arsenal of weapons but at the same time the clinch work is out of the window so expect to learn how to throw and receive bareknuckle punches to the body and liver a lot. If you want different, I suggest Enshin, Ashihara karate because you will learn more momentum manipulation and movements. IKO2 (shinkyokushin) seems to prefer more sideways and around movements as opposed to IKO1 (Matsui group) as well. I think IKO1 is a bit more reminiscent of MT as they are a bit more tankier and trade shots forward and backward, and there is less turning.

you might also try a Judo dojo as grappling arts could further your martial arts path. Most self defence scenarios start at very close distance where grappling is useful.

So I suggest that you go to any kyokushin and offshoot dojo if you want to learn and fight knockdown for a change or to go a Judo dojo and find fighters in judo that crosstrain striking arts to spar with or a karateka with grappling background. I would stay away from dojos that only train for kickboxing not because they are not good but because it would be more similar to your background and you would have less to further your martial arts skills.

[JamesD25]

Old school Muay Thai was bare knuckle in a since. All the fighters wore was the rope wrapped around their hands. This predates the integration of the boxing glove. I believe some of these type of fights still take place at some of the more rural matches throughout Thailand.

Of course if you want to use Muay Thai in a knockdown match format, perhaps you are the one to start such a school?

[Khaosan]

Originally Posted by JamesD25

Old school Muay Thai was bare knuckle in a since. All the fighters wore was the rope wrapped around their hands. This predates the integration of the boxing glove. I believe some of these type of fights still take place at some of the more rural matches throughout Thailand.

Of course if you want to use Muay Thai in a knockdown match format, perhaps you are the one to start such a school?

Heh, that sounds like quite the task creating your own organization and somewhat of a new style in itself. How would you even rank yourself then? Automatically appoint yourself as black belt and then create the rest from the ground up? Sounds like quite the big job, not to mention all the other organizations/politics that may reject you or not allow you to compete in their tourneys?

[harukaze]

Originally Posted by Khaosan

I've been reading a lot over the last few days regarding how certain styles/orgs came to be such as Ashihara/Enshin are Kyokushin off-shoots etc.. my question is has there ever been any knockdown focused styles that are off shoots from Thai Boxing rather than just other styles of Karate? I would have assumed that some long time Muay Thai guys may have formed their own organization/style that employed the principles of Muay Thai of simple yet effective striking into a knockdown style format and competed in knockdown under their own off-shoot org?? Such as using the MT round house, knees, low kicks and elbows to the body in knockdown (minus the clinching), instead of focusing on a more karate style based attack that consists of a lot of axe kicks, spinning kicks and karate style of kicking.

Has this ever existed? I'm a long time MT guy looking to get into knockdown (kyokushin/ashihara etc) but I am so use to the training methods of MT style fighting and the style itself that practicing kata, doing breaking etc is so out of my element that I was day dreaming about an org that may have based itself off of a non-karate style for knockdown. If there has never been something like this, is there a certain reason? Training in a dogi bareknuckled with Thai boxing style training could produce some devastating knockdown fighters in my opinion.

Thoughts? Osu!

Here's my 2 cents as a former Muay Thai practitioner (I've trained under several Lumpini and Rajadamnern champs for years before switching to knockdown) and a generally avid martial arts fan: short answer is no, no (major) knockdown organizations have been derived from MT. However, there are a number of large org's that have tailored their Kyokushin roots to be viable in a kickboxing format, the most prominent being Seidokaikan, the originator of K-1. Also noteworthy are FSA Kenshinkan (their normal rules are knockdown plus standing submissions, but look up their "Chaos Madmax" events -- essentially bareknuckle shootboxing matches with groin shots and headbutts!), Shidokan (the "triathalon" of martial arts, offering matches that shift from knockdown to kickboxing to MMA rules in North America), Mumonkai (essentially Daidojuku minus groundwork), and the Shinkarate league in Japan (also referred to as "glove karate").

Maybe the closest thing to a MT-derived knockdown "style" would be Sakmongkol Sitchuchoke's recent switch to knockdown karate, although he did not start his own org:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=K-rdUv9LXTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=YndzKiwJ5Yk
I could tell you that I've been able to apply nearly everything I've learned in MT to knockdown, but I think Sakmongkol makes the point more convincingly!

Perhaps I could offer my two cents for your transition based on my own, if I may: instead of replacing all your MT techniques with karate ones, keep your techniques and expand your arsenal by adding karate techniques to your base. For example, keep your dtae and teep, then learn the mawashi geri and mae geri -- you'll now be able to use both variations of each kick depending on the situation. I'm at the point where I don't have "just" one "roundhouse", but maybe 4 or 5 per height with differing speed and trajectories to throw my opponents off guard (but I make sure that I only throw kicks that have enough power to be effective!). Secondly, watch your punch height, especially if you're tall -- it's really hard to untrain your muscle memory when you're sparring or in a match where face punches are disallowed! Which leads to my third and final tidbit: when face punches are taken away, overall fight distancing closes in significantly. It will feel like the "hook and long knee" range of MT, just between the "kick and straight punch" and clinch ranges that you're probably used to. And chances are you'll be really tempted to clinch at the natural fighting range of knockdown, which is a potential no-no depending on your org.

Hope this helps!

[Khaosan]

Thanks for your post it was very informative man. Looked up all those styles and knew about some already but some were completely new. Ive been training in martial arts my whole life, started in generic karate when a child, BJJ in my early teens, Muay Thai and MMA in my mid teens and just straight MT ever since. I find I'm always looking for a bit more in my training, I love MT but feels its more just a ring sport without practicing for self defense and lacks budo spirit then on the flip side I love the spirit of karateka but am not comfortable with not utilizing punching to the face. I wish I could just create my own system of fighting with all my experience and competitive fights and blend a style that consist of training for knockdown, kickboxing and self defense all in one system. Muay Thai style training in MMA gloves to simulate real street fighting while wearing a gi to simulate clothes then also spar bar knuckle knockdown rules for spirit building and competition. I feel like making your own system is against some unwritten rule though like how would you rank yourself? Would other orgs not let me or my students compete in knockdown tourneys?

[Sanshou_Jae]

Originally Posted by Khaosan

I've been reading a lot over the last few days regarding how certain styles/orgs came to be such as Ashihara/Enshin are Kyokushin off-shoots etc.. my question is has there ever been any knockdown focused styles that are off shoots from Thai Boxing rather than just other styles of Karate? I would have assumed that some long time Muay Thai guys may have formed their own organization/style that employed the principles of Muay Thai of simple yet effective striking into a knockdown style format and competed in knockdown under their own off-shoot org?? Such as using the MT round house, knees, low kicks and elbows to the body in knockdown (minus the clinching), instead of focusing on a more karate style based attack that consists of a lot of axe kicks, spinning kicks and karate style of kicking.

Has this ever existed? I'm a long time MT guy looking to get into knockdown (kyokushin/ashihara etc) but I am so use to the training methods of MT style fighting and the style itself that practicing kata, doing breaking etc is so out of my element that I was day dreaming about an org that may have based itself off of a non-karate style for knockdown. If there has never been something like this, is there a certain reason? Training in a dogi bareknuckled with Thai boxing style training could produce some devastating knockdown fighters in my opinion.

Thoughts? Osu!

I do believe that Thailand, Burma and Cambodia have bare knuckle challenge matches every year. So if you find the right gym it may be possible to train MT as a bare knuckle style within Thailand and along the Burmese Border.

Maybe worth googling

[meguro]

Originally Posted by Sanshou_Jae

I do believe that Thailand, Burma and Cambodia have bare knuckle challenge matches every year. So if you find the right gym it may be possible to train MT as a bare knuckle style within Thailand and along the Burmese Border.

Maybe worth googling

Lethwei is the gloveless kick boxing art of Burma. You know how Muay Thai has 8 weapons? Lethwei has 9 because it utilizes headbutts. Needless to say, Lethwei matches can get pretty bloody.

[harukaze]

Originally Posted by Khaosan

Thanks for your post it was very informative man. Looked up all those styles and knew about some already but some were completely new. Ive been training in martial arts my whole life, started in generic karate when a child, BJJ in my early teens, Muay Thai and MMA in my mid teens and just straight MT ever since. I find I'm always looking for a bit more in my training, I love MT but feels its more just a ring sport without practicing for self defense and lacks budo spirit then on the flip side I love the spirit of karateka but am not comfortable with not utilizing punching to the face. I wish I could just create my own system of fighting with all my experience and competitive fights and blend a style that consist of training for knockdown, kickboxing and self defense all in one system. Muay Thai style training in MMA gloves to simulate real street fighting while wearing a gi to simulate clothes then also spar bar knuckle knockdown rules for spirit building and competition. I feel like making your own system is against some unwritten rule though like how would you rank yourself? Would other orgs not let me or my students compete in knockdown tourneys?

My friend, you just described Kyokushinkan. No need to start your own style!

You Tube

They have standard knockdown rules as well as shinken shoubu rules (small gloves with face punches OK).

As for the spirituality and traditional aspects of MT, both are definitely there if you train with the right instructors, and that often means training under a Thai ex-pro (though not 100% of them -- folks like Malaipet come to haha!). Their spirituality is often less upfront than that of knockdown, though, because they live it as part of their everyday life as opposed to conscientiously and assiduously maintaining traditions for the sake of traditions. Also, a lot of times, they won't share it with their students because they often assume (sometimes correctly) that Westerners just aren't interested in these sorts of things; other times, they just don't want to try to "push" their cultural practices upon others.

As for the self-defense aspects of MT, let me ask you this: would rather get into a proverbial street fight with a former pro with 300+ ring fights under his belt, or with a "self-defense techniques master" who has only trained against compliant opponents? I wouldn't be so fast to discount the practicality of a full-contact, non-compliant "sport" fighting style despite the presence of rules and/or a lack of "self defense techniques" (which actually do exist in the traditional mae mai and luk mai, and are often well-integrated within stadium-style MT).

Those who have been on this forum for a while know that I'm pretty passionate about MT and have some strong opinions on it, and I'm sure you've figured that out too now!

[Khaosan]

Ya i've seen Burmese boxing before and have had a former coach fight bareknuckle in Thailand, it's insane. I'm not so much looking for just fighting bareknuckle Muay Thai, but rather using my Muay Thai to expand it into more of a budo type karate style of fighting and self defense, since in Muay Thai we focus just on the ring sport aspect but what I imagining is taking Muay Thai techniques, removing the big gloves and using MMA gloves and a Gi to more represent what a fight is like in a street (clothing, bare knuckle) add in meditation and just overall training the spirit beyond just smashing pads which is what I have always felt was lacking in my MT training. I truly believe in Muay Thai technique and the quote comes to mind "I fear not the man who has practiced 10 000 kicks once, but 1 kick 10 000 times" or something to that extent, that is my philosophy towards what I have in mind. Having training using MT style techniques such as the middle kick, knee etc but adapting it to cover everything, self defense, knockdown and kickboxing. Sparring would be done half kickboxing/half knockdown and the rest of class would be focused on conditioning, meditation and technique.

I'm just rambling but I have a dream my friends! Haha, only issue is I can see my style/org being rejected and not allowed to enter competitions unless i'm under a certain banner IKO1, IFK etc.. not sure how the politics work exactly but is creating a system that far fetched? Is it possible or am I being arrogant (forgive me if I am).

[Khaosan]

Great post my friend, I definitely can tell that you know your stuff. My last post was made at the same time as yours so I didn't get a chance to read it before I posted mine. I don't at all discredit MT for self defense, I actually believe it to be the strongest Martial Art for self defense as I have used it before to protect myself (not proud of street fighting). I just desire to be able to expand my MT training into the realm of budo fighting and knockdown, while still focusing head punching to stay sharp for self defense purposes. I am in Toronto Canada so I have trouble training in the arts I truly want to such as Daido Juku, Kenshikan etc which is the only reason I thought and considered about even somehow starting up my own independent since I know exactly what I am looking for but can find it nowhere near home in my own country.

[harukaze]

Ah yes, the North American dilemma: always just not quite enough knockdown. I understand that feeling as do many here.