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[SKohai]

As evident from the number of quality instructors sosai oyama sent to united states and also of his frequent visits it seems like he placed huge emphasizes on spreading this art here, However, despite of that it seems like united states hasnt produced a major quality fighter after world tournament 1 (willi williams, charles martin etc) to make an impact in the world tournament or even a major tournament in japan.
It is the fighters from russia, brazil and japan who dominate the scene.
Other than Shihan isobe i cant think of a first generation authentic teacher who taught in brazil, but just from one teacher guidance directly, look how many champions brazil has produced and still produces.
For russia, i cant even recall an instructor who is a legend in the early kyokushin history, but russia is right there with brazil now in terms of quality fighters.

Now look how many legendary quality instructors USA have had, shigeru oyama, Joko ninomiya, Yamaki kenji, miura miyuki, nakamura, yoshiku oyama, Nobuyuki Kishi, katsuhito gorai, and tons of other japanese instructors who are top authorities in kyokushin.

Even though kyokushin i believe was introduced fairly later to russia and brazil than US, and also we have had more top class instructors who trained directly with sosai oyama, something went missing, or maybe all the big bosses parted their ways and emphasized on spreading their own style than creating tournament fighters. Or possibly karate isnt a mainstream sport here or doesnt have as much publicity as other sports has, and in those countries karate is a big thing. Or maybe it is MMA now, which the youth first choice is if they want martial arts to be competitive as a sport.

[Lowlander]

First of all Karate just isn't as popular in the US as it is in these other countries, actually let me re phrase that, knockdown Karate is not as popular, we have PLENTY of bouncy pointy Karate schools, but knockdown schools are rare.

In addition, many of those fighters that were sent to the US that you mentioned started their own styles of Karate and thus don't normally participate in Kyokushin tournaments. I know at least Kenji, Nakamura, Oyama and Ninomiya of course left Kyokushin.

They created their own tournaments and participate impressively in them, with the exception of Seido Juku, which although I feel is an incredible style, and one which other knockdown styles could learn from, does not regularly hold its own tournaments if I'm not mistaken. I wish Enshin would adopt the meditation aspect though, I feel like although time consuming it could be rather beneficial.

All in all though there isn't a really strong Kyokushin base, or following in the US, yeah we have great dojos and some great fighters but unfortunately American "krotty" has tainted the view of Karate in many peoples eyes here. It must be specifically explained what you actually train and fight like here in the US when you say Karate, you have to describe knockdown in order the block the automatic assumption that you are just poking eachother in the stomach once and then running away.

Most of the people who would enjoy knockdown don't know about it, or know about it but don't have a dojo anywhere close to them. They generally play it safe with boxing, MMA or the individual arts which have been popularized by UFC, AKA then stereotypical Muay Thai BJJ fanatic.

It is a shame though because knockdown does teach realisic hardcore fighting but it is much deeper and more substantial than that, but its just not as well known so people feel like they have to pick between "traditional" with all the values and no real fighting, and straight up MMA a lot of the time, which doesn't emphasize the mental as spiritual growth aspects of becoming a better person as much although I think hard training in general does that naturally to a point. Hopefully knockdown will grow, I often try to think of ways to bring more people in but it certainly is difficult.

[ItalianTankATT]

Lowlander is correct. You definitely have to explain the difference between knockdown and mcdojo point fighting. what it comes down to as well, i believe, is people in the US have become softer. people don't want to get hit. you would be surprised how many people say they would do mma and might even try it, but as soon as they get thrown or tapped in the nose they go into the "fetus position". they should just stick to watching it. even pro mma fighters, especially the ones that come from the sport of amateur wrestling, will look to take you down instead of stand and fight, ie Brock Lesnar. Its effective but also can be boring to watch. now, not all of the fighters from wrestling do that but most will when hit.

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

Possibly because Kyokushin was so fragmented in the USA, it did not assist the development together. Then on another note - remember that because Europe is so much smaller, they have more tournaments than what the USA would have. That can make a huge difference.

How many tournaments did the USA have and how many are still being held. In comparison, the Eastern Bloc countries had regular events from Poland to Hungary to Rumania to Russia so there was lots of opportunities to hone ones skill.

Similary the same goes for WKF type karate. Here in South Africa, we feel it with both types of karate - the rest of the world is so far away that we cannot afford to regularly compete abroad which means our athletes does have a disadvantage.

[49ers1970]

Osu!

The would be great World Class knockdown fighters in the U.S are currently playing in

the NBA or NFL. The same "above rule" also applies to heavyweight boxing where

the heavyweight division has been lacking for the better part of 2 decades.

The last I remember the U.S having World Class knockdown talent was in the

World Oyama Honbu in the early to mid 1990's when Soshu Shigeru Oyama was still

head of the organization. You had fighters such as Jose Cotton, Brian Martin,

Patrick Grumeiux, Chris Bus (Holland), James Warren, Paul Zukowski, Stanley Eysallene

(middleweight) etc. They were of course in World Oyama and I believe in IKO 1 World

Tournament formats fighters are only allowed to compete in IKO 1 if they are from IKO1.

Nevertheless, I feel the above fighters would have held their own in a World

Tournament setting.

Osu!

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by SKohai

As evident from the number of quality instructors sosai oyama sent to united states and also of his frequent visits it seems like he placed huge emphasizes on spreading this art here, However, despite of that it seems like united states hasnt produced a major quality fighter after world tournament 1 (willi williams, charles martin etc) to make an impact in the world tournament or even a major tournament in japan.
It is the fighters from russia, brazil and japan who dominate the scene.
Other than Shihan isobe i cant think of a first generation authentic teacher who taught in brazil, but just from one teacher guidance directly, look how many champions brazil has produced and still produces.
For russia, i cant even recall an instructor who is a legend in the early kyokushin history, but russia is right there with brazil now in terms of quality fighters.

Now look how many legendary quality instructors USA have had, shigeru oyama, Joko ninomiya, Yamaki kenji, miura miyuki, nakamura, yoshiku oyama, Nobuyuki Kishi, katsuhito gorai, and tons of other japanese instructors who are top authorities in kyokushin.

Even though kyokushin i believe was introduced fairly later to russia and brazil than US, and also we have had more top class instructors who trained directly with sosai oyama, something went missing, or maybe all the big bosses parted their ways and emphasized on spreading their own style than creating tournament fighters. Or possibly karate isnt a mainstream sport here or doesnt have as much publicity as other sports has, and in those countries karate is a big thing. Or maybe it is MMA now, which the youth first choice is if they want martial arts to be competitive as a sport.

In Matsuiha and Shinkyokushinkai:
Why Britain has not produced a major fighter since the 4th World Tournament?
Why Canada has not produced a major fighter since the 5th World Tournament?
Why Switzerland? Why France? Why?

Those who cannot adapt to the new fighting style will not advance in tournaments. There is no use looking back history.

Tournament training is teamwork, not the efforts of one or two "legendary instructors". Instructor A in Japan is great because he has a lot of support from his organisation, he has a group of supportive and disciplined students and so forth. If you move him to another group or send him to USA, there is no guarantee that he will be doing as great.

The multiplication of organisations helps to produce more great fighters as each organisation will always claim that they have great fighters. Tell me if you can find an organisation which do not have one or two guys they call them "great".

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by 49ers1970

Osu!

The would be great World Class knockdown fighters in the U.S are currently playing in the NBA or NFL. The same "above rule" also applies to heavyweight boxing (...)

Really???
Have you got anything to corroborate this extraordinary claim 49er?


Osu!

[knuckleheader]

Money, money money. You're basically a pro fighter, fighting for free in top level Kyokushin tournaments.

Most seem to choose a competition(UFC, Boxing etc.) that has a payoff. Who wants to endure all the hardship for no reward?

MHO

[sandman]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

In Matsuiha and Shinkyokushinkai:
Why Britain has not produced a major fighter since the 4th World Tournament?
Why Canada has not produced a major fighter since the 5th World Tournament?
Why Switzerland? Why France? Why?

Those who cannot adapt to the new fighting style will not advance in tournaments. There is no use looking back history.

Tournament training is teamwork, not the efforts of one or two "legendary instructors". Instructor A in Japan is great because he has a lot of support from his organisation, he has a group of supportive and disciplined students and so forth. If you move him to another group or send him to USA, there is no guarantee that he will be doing as great.

The multiplication of organisations helps to produce more great fighters as each organisation will always claim that they have great fighters. Tell me if you can find an organisation which do not have one or two guys they call them "great".

Osu!

Good post Kakatootoshi. I agree.

It seems to me that to become an elite level fighter, you need not only a great coach and great sparring partners, you also need plenty of opportunities to compete in high level tournaments. I think in the USA we have a few pockets of really good knockdown karate - but they are too few and far between for fighters to be able to go out and regularly test themselves against new high caliber opponents.

Heck, in most areas in the US, if you can find a knockdown dojo at all within driving distance you are lucky. And it's hard to host a knockdown tournament if you are the only dojo for miles around.

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by sandman

Heck, in most areas in the US, if you can find a knockdown dojo at all within driving distance you are lucky. And it's hard to host a knockdown tournament if you are the only dojo for miles around.

Another problem faced in South Africa is that in some dojo (many) the student base has shifted from adults to kids, so in any particular dojo, there is not much competition to drive or challenge seniors wishing to fight in KD.

[sandman]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

Another problem faced in South Africa is that in some dojo (many) the student base has shifted from adults to kids, so in any particular dojo, there is not much competition to drive or challenge seniors wishing to fight in KD.

Osu! Similar problem here as well

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by sandman

Osu! Similar problem here as well

And it is rather difficult to address. Mas wrote about her dojo partner facing the same problem that he did not have enough fighting in their dojo because of the lack of competition.

Yes, one can do pad, bag and other work - but one does need to work with a partner at least of equal size to be able to benefit.

Anyone experiencing same have any ideas?

[Yokozuna]

Interesting topic Skohai and one that's answer is not so straight forward in my opinion. I think 49ers1970 was on the right track when he said that "the would be great World Class KD fighters are currently playing in the NBA or NFL", in the sense that there is a lot of competition to recruit youth into sports in the US (not so much in Canada but it does happen). Dreams of six to seven figure deals to play basketball and football (or attend a major university for that matter) are competing for the same pool of extraordinary athletes.

Perhaps this is not a fair question in this forum but if anyone of us were given a choice between playing high school, college and then pro ball (with hefty pay checks and all the fringe benefits) or doing Kyokushin karate where the pinnacle of KD success is winning tournaments as an amateur, how many of us would choose the latter ? I think that is the reason you do not see the fighters coming from these areas. Too much competition from other more lucrative sports.

Now why does Brazil and Russia produce so many ? That is another thread, I think.......

[kakatootoshi]

To blame everything on a lack of money incentive is easy, it is like saying in Japan all those who train in Karate/fight in tournaments are highly paid.

[Yokozuna]

Actually not really, just because I make a statement that I believe something is true doesn't mean I also believe that the opposite is true as well. That would be putting words in my mouth. I do believe that more lucrative careers in those other sports are drawing on the same talent pool as KD karate. That doesn't mean, I believe that the people practicing KD karate currently are well paid or do not care about being well paid.

If you ask me why are there an abundance of world class fighters coming from Brazil and Russia, I would also say there are some socio economic reasons that are hard to deny but that is for a different thread, I think.....

[Yokozuna]

Oh, and I purposely left Japan out of my comments because I think that Japan's reasons or ability to produce world class fighters is very different than Russia and Brazil. There are far greater authorities about Japan here though so I think I will let them comment about that.

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Yokozuna

If you ask me why are there an abundance of world class fighters coming from Brazil and Russia, I would also say there are some socio economic reasons that are hard to deny but that is for a different thread, I think.....

Perhaps this is why so many rather do kickboxing or boxing as they can earn some money to nothing here in South Africa.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by Yokozuna

(...)I think that is the reason you do not see the fighters coming from these areas. Too much competition from other more lucrative sports.

Once again the same question: Have you got anything to corroborate this extraordinary claim outside of a speculative narrative?


Osu!

[Yokozuna]

LOL, osu FredinChina ! Probably not as much evidence as many would like ; ).

I am only speaking from being in a position where I too have to compete for the recruitment of young talent into a sport that is not the most popular in my area. In Montreal, your kid plays hockey. All other sports are a far second and do not get much interest (except for soccer which is starting to become a major sport here).

In the U.S. you have many more choices depending on the region you come from and all promise fame and fortune for the select few that make it to the big leagues.

Money may not be the sole reason but it is certainly a compelling reason for many.

[meguro]

Originally Posted by knuckleheader

Money, money money. You're basically a pro fighter, fighting for free in top level Kyokushin tournaments.

Most seem to choose a competition(UFC, Boxing etc.) that has a payoff. Who wants to endure all the hardship for no reward?

MHO

I agree with this, partially, although I don't think it's the size of the purse or lack thereof. To train at an elite level requires professional level dedication as well as a large talent pool to draw from. Unfortunately, the life of a professional martial artists in the US is hard scrabble at best. Many dojo operate as small part-time businesses, or are hampered by the notion that karate teachers should not be motivated by profit. What you have then are instructors gainfully employed in some other industry while teaching karate on the side, non-profit clubs or independent belt mills, but hardly dojo that can produce world-class fighters.

What's lacking in the US is the leadership of an organization that can coordinate the marketing as well as develop and nurture a career path for the best fighters. If there's no where to go for chewed-up knockdown fighters, there's limited appeal.