mma and karate

powerof0ne · 03-31-2007, 09:36 PM

I am a regular on an mma forum, and somewhat regular here, when time permits. I am really starting to get sick of going on an MMA forum and hearing the negative attitude towards Karate/Kyokushin/etc. and going on forums like this one and hearing ignorant comments towards MMA.
Brief martial art bio about me: I trained for years under one of Master Toddy's instructors, later training privately under him...trained under Marcelo Alonso(4th deg. under Carlson Gracie), having met CArlson and Vitor Belfort through him, taught Muay Thai to Marcleo's "vale tudo" students, along with my brother. Ignorantly turning down an oppurtunity to teach the Rangers at Ft. Lewis, WA when I was only 19, too. I did, however, start out in Shito Ryu and get into kakutogi and knockdown karate after muay thai. I came up in the fight game in the same cards and times when guys like Josh Barnett, Dennis Hallman, Ivan Salaverry, and many others been doing bjj under gracie barra over the years...been doing bjj since 99. I'm a far better striker but respect grappling and mma a lot. When I was in Shito ryu I trained under Teruo Hayashi since I was a hayashi ha shito ryu student, before he passed. I won usankf nationals and was on my way to jr. olympics but my dojo closed down. I only once didn't place 1st in kumite in my usankf tournament days. I really don't respect foam dipped point tournaments...I have been around Frank Shamrock, Maurice Smith, TK, and many others before the year '00. I'm trying to make this as short as possible and not trying to appear to brag but to let you know I've "been there, done that"
Anyhoo, I love Kyokushin, MMA, BJJ, Boxing, Judo, etc...but it's ridiculous when someone that has less than a year experience in another art, if any at all talk bad about another art. To put it bluntly: they don't know crap. I often find myself in the middle, rolling my eyes at the karateka and the mma'ist or the thaiboxers/kickboxers while they trash eachother.
Oh yeah, I have compted in knockdown tournaments, too, and will probabl only compete in these from now on cause I'm getting too old for muay thai fights. have fun training and competing, but don't put down other arts you really haven't experienced.

nzproud · 04-01-2007, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

I am really starting to get sick of going on an MMA forum and hearing the negative attitude towards Karate/Kyokushin/etc. and going on forums like this one and hearing ignorant comments towards MMA.

Osu! I'm certainly not the one who is bad mouthing about MMA. MMA is great, and those fighters get a lot of respect from me for wearing such skinny gloves and fight.

Sonik · 04-01-2007, 06:20 PM

I never read any post here of people trashing MMA. I know some people here may dislike it but they all respect it.

Bruce · 04-01-2007, 07:41 PM

I must admit I was almost totally ignorant of what MMA was until I started reading the posts here and started following links to clips on you tube etc, I've got nothing but complete respect for anyone who competes in this form of martial art, I know that I couldn't do it, awesome to watch though! - And I agree with Sonik in that I've not noticed anyone on these forums trashing MMA.

AE · 12-02-2007, 09:05 PM

I have no experience in MMA, but I understand that it is a combination of standing fight using strikes (fists, elbows, knees and feet), takedowns and groundfighting (focused in jointlocks). I also understand that to get an appropriate knowledge of the different ranges of fighting involved, a MMA fighter usually trains in different arts: the most common be muay thai for the standing part, and bjj for the groundfighting. Of course the fighter may choose to train in different disciplines.
If what I am saying is acceptable, then I don't see much difference between an ideal mma fighter and an ideal karate fighter. In old karate there are also strikes, takedowns (nage waza), joint locks (tuite or gyaku waza) and groundfighting (ne waza). Old karate also relied in low kicks, not high kicks, as can be noted by watching Okinawan kata.

Of course, modern mma and old karate have different focuses according to their unique circumstances, so that it is understandable the mma emphasizes groundfighting and old karate emphasizes takedowns, but I think it is safe to say that ideal mma and ideal karate are more similar than different. It is also clear that by "old karate" I am not referring to the modern sport karate created and popularized during XX, but to the Okinawan art as practiced until the first third of the XX.
I have been thinking about this from time to time, but I haven't had the time to do some research and see whether it can be defended succesfully. I'd appreciate your input, specially from the mma fellows since I have never train mma and mi historical knowledge is not very good.

Thanks in advanced

Bloke · 12-03-2007, 12:08 PM

I have to say I dont recall anyone making ignorant comments regarding MMA here and we have a policy against knocking other styles.

seienchin · 12-03-2007, 12:30 PM

PowerofOne - thanks for taking the time to post, and express your concerns. it is clear from your post that you feel some people have crossed a line, and it is important that the Moderators understand that from your perspective.

If there is any particular post that is offensive , it is most helpful if it can be drawn to the attention of one (or more) of the Moderators, so that we can intervene if necessary. That is best done when the post is "fresh", but it still applies even now, if there are particular older posts that you think have breached the forum rules about respect for other styles.

I have greatly enjoyed learning about MMA from you and the other enthusiasts in K4L, and I would actively oppose anything that made you feel unwelcome or disrespected. Whilst those of us who are not MMA practitioners may not immediately recognise posts that are offensive to MMA practitioners, we'd be happy to learn.

Keep on posting - and keep the dialogue going!

Azimuth · 12-03-2007, 04:26 PM

Hope Powerofone-san still reads this since his thread originates from March 07

But any way there is no better this or that it all depends on the situation you come into .
I personally don't like to watch mma fights because it comes down to choking or locking at the end anyway, but i like to practice it myself from time to time if i have the opportunity .
Regarding the negative comments about mma i think we can prove the opposite
just check the topics cross training , mma, judo/karate etc ....

Paedde · 12-03-2007, 05:01 PM

Hmm MMA normally respects Kyokushin. At least on Sherdog and I can't think of a much worse community (no offence but the truth, read the offtopic

)

koji112091 · 12-04-2007, 04:03 AM

Yes. I go on sherdog sometimes and mostly hear good comments. Youtube seems to have more kyokushin bashing.

I'm not sure if it is here but some karate sites I have been to, thrash MMA and some MMA forums thrash traditional arts. I normaly say that it is not the style but the fighter that makes the difference. I believe the majority of people here believe in that aswell. Osu!

**Brad** · 12-04-2007, 09:26 AM

ok i havent read any one mocking mma fighters or that martail art, i know of afew that fight in this stlye and they are good hard fighters. Being from a back ground of thai boxing i think putting all three together is a good fighting advantage. Just takes time. If i could i would do ju jitsu Kyokushin and thai boxing.

**kanku** · 12-04-2007, 11:23 AM

normally when one style insults another it eminates from their own personal insecurities,ignorence,or financial issues.."we don`t want our boys doing that,it`s going to cost us dough" mma is not my cup of tea but nor is pro boxing....i`d like to be top class at both !!

as spirit always quotes "it`s not the style,it`s the teacher"....i haven`t seen a lot of disrespect on this forum, i believe the vast majority of people respect each others ability and those with brains realise we have a lot to learn from each other,it may be an old thread but it is a good talking point

orisha66 · 12-04-2007, 05:17 PM

As far as trashing another art, out of the 20 + years that i have been training, kyokushinkai's have by most part been the most humble of fighters.

shinobijesus · 12-10-2007, 06:20 AM

i have to say i dont have much respect for the mma ethos. understand thats not saying i dont respect mma fighters. some of those guys are as open minded as karateka while at the same time some karateka are as ignorant as some mma guys. it depends on the person. in so far as the culture of mma i really dont have much respect for it because its dominated by ignorance.

i dont blame the practicioners themselves because what you learn and pass on comes from your teacher so it should be on the instructors shoulders to not pass on a bias. i place most of the blame on the sport mma organizations - the ufc, pride, ifl, etc - for allowing things to be misrepresented. mma fans constantly laud mma competition as a "as real as it gets outside of a street fight" type thing. they dont acknowledge that these competitors are taking part in a sport in which they know they will fight, they know months in advance, they train specifically to fight that one person, they fight only once a night, they monitor their bodyweight to cut weight you wouldnt get rid of in an average amount of time, and they compete within a set of rules..... thats a sport.

in my opinion and the opinion of many of my traditionalist friends, when you train a martial art as part of your life you should be able to fight to your potential at all times. because you never know right? thats as real as it gets. in my opinion, martial arts is akin to survival. not competing for glory.

another problem i have with mma is that it gives the impression anyone can cross train everything right off the bat. im sure there are a few prodigal students who can handle that and become great fighters, but if you train too many things at once then what are you good at? the old saying "a jack of all trades is a master of none" comes to mind here.
when you have years of experience in another art you have a level of control over your body that an untrained person doesnt. hence the new art comes easier to you. if Joe Average who works 9-5 in an office and watches ufc on weekends signs a several thousand dollar contract for a year of training at an mma gym and trains muay thai on monday, brazillian jiu jitsu on tuesday and friday, and does boxing on thursday with wrestling on saturday...... when does this guy have time to get good at any of this? its a flawed premise and the mma community doesnt even acknowledge that it can be seen as such. instead they hold up their cross training ethos as their strength and denigrate the accomplishments of a more focused fighter - someone who does karate all their life, or tae kwon do for 20 years, or kung fu for a few decades- as though its scientifically proven the mma fighter will win.

just look at 2007 the year of the upsets. so many predictions were proven wrong because the mma guys looked at these fights on paper and said there was only *one* outcome based on their data... but if you bet money on Cotoure, Gonzaga, Serra, or Rampage you woulda made a killing because the nature of martial arts is unpredictable at best.

guess i went kinda long and it became a rant but ill just post this for now and see some feedback to reply to.

Sonik · 12-20-2007, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

i have to say i dont have much respect for the mma ethos. understand thats not saying i dont respect mma fighters. some of those guys are as open minded as karateka while at the same time some karateka are as ignorant as some mma guys. it depends on the person. in so far as the culture of mma i really dont have much respect for it because its dominated by ignorance.

i dont blame the practicioners themselves because what you learn and pass on comes from your teacher so it should be on the instructors shoulders to not pass on a bias. i place most of the blame on the sport mma organizations - the ufc, pride, ifl, etc - for allowing things to be misrepresented. mma fans constantly laud mma competition as a "as real as it gets outside of a street fight" type thing. they dont acknowledge that these competitors are taking part in a sport in which they know they will fight, they know months in advance, they train specifically to fight that one person, they fight only once a night, they monitor their bodyweight to cut weight you wouldnt get rid of in an average amount of time, and they compete within a set of rules..... thats a sport.

in my opinion and the opinion of many of my traditionalist friends, when you train a martial art as part of your life you should be able to fight to your potential at all times. because you never know right? thats as real as it gets. in my opinion, martial arts is akin to survival. not competing for glory.

another problem i have with mma is that it gives the impression anyone can cross train everything right off the bat. im sure there are a few prodigal students who can handle that and become great fighters, but if you train too many things at once then what are you good at? the old saying "a jack of all trades is a master of none" comes to mind here.
when you have years of experience in another art you have a level of control over your body that an untrained person doesnt. hence the new art comes easier to you. if Joe Average who works 9-5 in an office and watches ufc on weekends signs a several thousand dollar contract for a year of training at an mma gym and trains muay thai on monday, brazillian jiu jitsu on tuesday and friday, and does boxing on thursday with wrestling on saturday...... when does this guy have time to get good at any of this? its a flawed premise and the mma community doesnt even acknowledge that it can be seen as such. instead they hold up their cross training ethos as their strength and denigrate the accomplishments of a more focused fighter - someone who does karate all their life, or tae kwon do for 20 years, or kung fu for a few decades- as though its scientifically proven the mma fighter will win.

just look at 2007 the year of the upsets. so many predictions were proven wrong because the mma guys looked at these fights on paper and said there was only *one* outcome based on their data... but if you bet money on Cotoure, Gonzaga, Serra, or Rampage you woulda made a killing because the nature of martial arts is unpredictable at best.

guess i went kinda long and it became a rant but ill just post this for now and see some feedback to reply to.

Hum yeah MMA competition has rules but so does Karate. In fact most Karate styles hae much more rigid rules like no punch facing, no nage waza, no ne waza, no headbutts , no elbows, no clinch. So in that aspect their aproach is more realistic than most traditional martial arts these days. They cover much more aspects/techniques of real fighting.

And if you look close most of the so called traditional dojos are very soft in their training. Students there sput a lotta stress in their kata but when it comes to fighting, just forget it. They won't last long. Even an average guy with no training can beat some of those black belts.

I've seen this a lot where i grew up. Nobody here in the streets takes Karate, Kenpo or Taekwondo seriously. Only Boxing and Muay Thai. And Ju-jutsu is starting to build it's own reputation because of the many brazilian immigrants and MMA events here and the media coverage (K-1,UFC, Pride...).

shinobijesus · 01-05-2008, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonik

Hum yeah MMA competition has rules but so does Karate. In fact most Karate styles hae much more rigid rules like no punch facing, no nage waza, no ne waza, no headbutts , no elbows, no clinch. So in that aspect their aproach is more realistic than most traditional martial arts these days. They cover much more aspects/techniques of real fighting.

i was just pointing out that mma is a sport. people think its the most real martial arts competition out there just cause it has the fewest rules, but that couldnt be further from the truth.

the way martial arts is akin to survival is when you train for self defense situations. mma guys are training to compete within their sets of rules for their tournament to "win" their match. there is no match on the street.

thats one of my biggest problems with mma. when people try to apply it outside of its sport context without regard for circumstances.

ever taken a guy to the ground in a bar fight? ever done it while he had 4 or 5 friends nearby? does that even sound like a good idea...?

smoothsake · 01-05-2008, 07:50 PM

I have tons of respect for anyone that is willing to get into a ring and compete in a hard style; of course that includes MMA competitors. Yes anything with rules is a sport. Boxing is a sport, MT is a sport, kickboxing is a sport, MMA is a sport, and knockdown Karate is a sport. But who said because it's a sport, it's not practical? In my experience the one with even a little bit of training will prevail over someone with no training. Furthermore, within each of these sports, the practitioner has developed a fighter's spirit that will overwhelm someone with an underdeveloped sense of combat.

Bottom line, respect all (until they disrespect you).

shinobijesus · 01-06-2008, 03:43 AM

perhaps i just draw that distinction between sport and art because ive been to schools that focus entirely on the competitive aspect. it always seems like the art is lost when someone gets caught up in winning/losing.

i didnt say it wasnt practical to learn something. i agree completely that training anything is better than nothing.

as far as respecting until they disrespect... serious question here - have you been to an mma gym before? depending on the size of the owners ego they may or may not spend the entire first visit you have there denigrating the accomplishments of all traditional martial arts.

true story: when i went to an mma gym nearby, to get a schedule to try out a class, i happened to mention i was involved in boxing for a short time in high school. the guy picked up the ball and ran with it pretty much spending the entire rest of my visit there talking about how boxing is one dimensional, is dying as a sport, etc etc... needless to say i havent been back.

smoothsake · 01-06-2008, 08:00 AM

Shinobijesus,

Well you did say "most real" which I interpreted as practical. Sorry if I misinterpreted. OSU!

Paedde · 01-06-2008, 09:42 AM

Maybe some are one dimensional, but there are others as well

I got in contact with a few people at a small MMA event here, and 99% of the guys are friendly, respectful and humble (I didn't thought so before). Everyone I told I do kyokushin just responded that I would need to learn groundwork for MMA too, and that's the truth anyway.

By the way, there was also a fight between a KK/Judo guy and a MT/BJJ, the Kyokushin one (brown belt) won by ease.