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[hoihoi]

Hoihoi Mina. First of all i would like too apologize for my broken english

I am a 20 year old guy, i stand at 182 cm and weigh 82 kilo's. I trained wushu for a couple of years, i also did som ju-jutsu. I stopped traning wushu 2 years ago, because the club had problems find a place to train. So for the past 2 years i have been bodybuilding, strength traning and been doing felxibility traning.

I have become very powerful and very flexible. All thanks too the genius called Pavel Tsatsouline, he is a must know author if you are interrrested in ganing power with out weights, also with weights.

I want to start martial arts again, my attention has fallen upon karate - do. I have since then studied karate book, all from the white crane style in china too okinawa, to the mainland of japan and then too the rest of the world(also america whice is 70% mcdojo).

I have read book like bubishi aka. the karate bible (very facinating book) a book that was passed down from karate master to karate master, whice stills the story about karate, and how it evolved from the white crane style in china to the okinwan kara-te and then to the karate we now of today.

I have also studied karate book of differnt style's, than kyokushin from some of the great masters. I have read the bio and book of shotokan by Gichin Funakoshi sensei. I have read goju books by the current great master Morio Higaonna sensei. Other styles like uechi - ryu and also. I have spend hours watchin video from different styles, comparing them. I have also read oyama sosai(i dont know if i should adress him this way since i am not a kyokushin student, but since this is a kyokushin forum i will do so). I have also read sosai's - book called essential karate. I have also read about the current kancho's like matsui kancho (Iko1), read about Midori kancho (Iko2/wko). Matsushima kancho (Iko3), Tekuza kancho (Iko4) Oyama Family by sosai daughter Kikuko aka kuristina kancho (Iko5).

So that was a little about my knowlegde og karate. Even with all of this knowlegde. I can not decide whice style i would like to train. The 2 styles wich i most want to train are kyokushin and goju-ryu.

The reason why i want to train kyokushin (strong karate as it also is called) is because of the power, the full contact. I am just a little scared of that kyokushin has become a litte too sporty, too much of tournament focus, i do not really care about titels or piceses of metal hung around my neck. I want too follow the budo way of karate. The spirte of a karateka. I want budo karate not sporto karate. There are 2 dojos where i live, an Iko1 school (

hxxp://www .karate.dk

) the wierd things about this school is they want you too take a basic course at there kickboxing class before moving over to the kyokushin. There is also a Iko2/Wko school (

hxxp://www .karateklub.com

) It seems like a cool dojo.

The reason why i want to train goju -ryu. Is because it is an tradtional okinawan karate style (i also know that kyokushin is partialy goju and some shotokan). There is not that much sport elements, it is still the lethal skills that was train in okinawa. The sparring is just messed up. Have you ever seen a goju ryu kumite, they just jump around like fools (a real karateka master does not jump around like that) and then it point oriented which destroys alot of the spirite of okinawan. I have read that karate was originaly design too be a one puch, kill tecnique. Because the aim was for one man to defeat many, that may also be why there is no ground grappeling. That you had to transform your legs and your hands too swords. The problem with the goju-ryu school in copenhagen (

hxxp://www .okinawa-karate.dk

), is it looks more like a cuddly happy club then a karate club, there always talking about how much fun they have and all the things they do toghter in there free time. This may sound cold, but i go to a karate club to learn karate, not socialize.

Sorry about all the info, this looks more like an essay than a post. Are there anyone who can give me som pointers on different karate style and if you would like too share som of kyokushin budo part with me, I would like to thank everyone who replies.

OSU!!!

[Spirit]

One thing you need to understand.... how you get along with the instructor is very important, far more than style....
Does the instructor teach in a way that strikes at the very core of your mind & body if so, join that dojo!!!

[Martin H]

Goju is a fine style, but if they dont do full contact (which they usually dont, it was the traditional sparring method from way back, but it is now almost a<bandoned in favour of point sparring under WKF rules), and full contact is what you want. Go to kyokushin.
As for which kyokushin organisation, that really dont matter, as in all that matters the training is the same. The kickboxing basic course required in the IKO1 dojo you mention is unusual but actually a good idea.

In the end, Jap man is right. Go to the dojo you feel comfortable in, and the instructor you get along best with.
Also, ease of travel to the dojo is also worth taking into consideration. If it takes 1 hour to travel to the dojo (and 1 hour back), it might affect your motivation after a while.

But go visit the dojos. Ask to watch a few basic and advanced classes in each. Since you trained some martial art before, you ought to be able to get a feeling for if it is the kind of training you want to do. Breath the atmosphere of the club and determine if you think you would like it there.

[powerof0ne]

Also, not all Goju is "Okinawan", some is "Japanese". I'll leave it up to you to research what I'm talking about but I agree with Jap Man on joining a dojo with an instructor that you think you can get along with, respect, etc. Respect is important, I have gone to some dojo and kickboxing gyms where I don't think the instructor has competed or ever fought so I really don't respect them to teach me.

[ksan]

Googled for you:

Kyokushinkai Copenhagen
Chairman: Andy Bengtson
Glentevej 70 A 2.
DK-2400 Copenhagen NV
Denmark
Tel/fax: +45 3819 4050

osu

Ksan

[hoihoi]

This is the Iko2 school i was talking about, i think i will take a free course in both kyokushin and goju-ryu (the okinawan style, there is also an american version whice sucks, sorry but The states realli messed up karate in my opninon). Thank you for all your replies.

Osu

Originally Posted by ksan

Googled for you:

Kyokushinkai Copenhagen
Chairman: Andy Bengtson
Glentevej 70 A 2.
DK-2400 Copenhagen NV
Denmark
Tel/fax: +45 3819 4050

osu

Ksan

[blackshield]

Ok, firstly I think you have had some great advice ie - try out the clubs, and that the instructor is far more important than the style. To illustrate this, I have just come from a Goju club that I loved (left because I moved country) - we sparred full contact, kyokushin style, but with throwing/clinching/groundwork/locks etc all thrown in. we also did a lot of full contact with head gear and Boxing gloves to train giving and taking headshots along with the rest of it. We also did a huge amount of multiple attacker sparring, still full contact... sometimes involving weapons defence. For me this is what traditional karate should be - a well rounded hollistic system, trained in a realistic way. The reason I say all this is because I have now started Kyokushin - the reason being that the Goju clubs here seem to contain zero realism or substance (the tippy tappy crap that everyone knows). The kyokushin on the other hand doesn't contain quite the breadth of areas that I am looking to cover - but what it does do it does very very well (hard strike based fighting).

So I would say firstly look for a good instructor, not a style - then ask what you really want from a system... you mention a traditional style, but also wanty full contact, that shouldn't be too hard to find... and kyokushin could be a good starting point. (like I said - better to go with a style that does what it does to the highest level, than a club that does lots of things poorly).

You mention you did jiu jitsu, this is a great style, and I know plenty of jitsu guys who train full contact too... so perhaps you could continue with that (unless of course the striking is what you want to develop).

One thing I would be wary of is many so called 'traditional' schools hide behind there 'traditional' title and use it as an excuse for not training realistically.

[powerof0ne]

Originally Posted by blackshield

Ok, firstly I think you have had some great advice ie - try out the clubs, and that the instructor is far more important than the style. To illustrate this, I have just come from a Goju club that I loved (left because I moved country) - we sparred full contact, kyokushin style, but with throwing/clinching/groundwork/locks etc all thrown in. we also did a lot of full contact with head gear and Boxing gloves to train giving and taking headshots along with the rest of it. We also did a huge amount of multiple attacker sparring, still full contact... sometimes involving weapons defence. For me this is what traditional karate should be - a well rounded hollistic system, trained in a realistic way. The reason I say all this is because I have now started Kyokushin - the reason being that the Goju clubs here seem to contain zero realism or substance (the tippy tappy crap that everyone knows). The kyokushin on the other hand doesn't contain quite the breadth of areas that I am looking to cover - but what it does do it does very very well (hard strike based fighting).

So I would say firstly look for a good instructor, not a style - then ask what you really want from a system... you mention a traditional style, but also wanty full contact, that shouldn't be too hard to find... and kyokushin could be a good starting point. (like I said - better to go with a style that does what it does to the highest level, than a club that does lots of things poorly).

You mention you did jiu jitsu, this is a great style, and I know plenty of jitsu guys who train full contact too... so perhaps you could continue with that (unless of course the striking is what you want to develop).

One thing I would be wary of is many so called 'traditional' schools hide behind there 'traditional' title and use it as an excuse for not training realistically.

I couldn't agree more with what you said towards the end how some schools use the "traditional" title and hide behind it. I once went to this private Shito Ryu dojo a few years back that was actually pretty nice and very affordable, nearby, etc. The head instructor was overweight and they had me meet them one on one and had the daughter serve me green tea and said the cliche Domo Arigato like that would impress me, I'm not sure. Anyway, I let that past and trained, paid them,etc. I did one class with the husband and tried to find out where they trained in shito at because I was familiar with a good 90% of the shito sensei in that area and he wouldn't really answer my question but he seemed like a nice guy and was actually helping me get back to my shito form(going from shito to muay thai and vice versa is hard for me)with my kicks. The next night I trained with the wife...wow is all I can say, she was having me do some joint locks and take downs that she couldn't make work on me unless I fell to the ground on my own, the bad part about it was she was using some Japanese terminology that I never heard for these locks and throws that I have never seen in Shito Ryu. She wouldn't tell me where they came from so I asked the husband and he said they learned them in chin na and admitted to me that they incoorparated them in this "traditonal" Karate and gave them Japanese names. They also wouldn't spar me or let me spar any students and there excuse was no students were black belt yet and they only wanted to let black belts spar. I only trained 3 times and pretty much wasted a month's tuition...it's a shame too because it was convenient for me but Karate without any realistic kumite is ballet to me.

[hoihoi]

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

I couldn't agree more with what you said towards the end how some schools use the "traditional" title and hide behind it. I once went to this private Shito Ryu dojo a few years back that was actually pretty nice and very affordable, nearby, etc. The head instructor was overweight and they had me meet them one on one and had the daughter serve me green tea and said the cliche Domo Arigato like that would impress me, I'm not sure. Anyway, I let that past and trained, paid them,etc. I did one class with the husband and tried to find out where they trained in shito at because I was familiar with a good 90% of the shito sensei in that area and he wouldn't really answer my question but he seemed like a nice guy and was actually helping me get back to my shito form(going from shito to muay thai and vice versa is hard for me)with my kicks. The next night I trained with the wife...wow is all I can say, she was having me do some joint locks and take downs that she couldn't make work on me unless I fell to the ground on my own, the bad part about it was she was using some Japanese terminology that I never heard for these locks and throws that I have never seen in Shito Ryu. She wouldn't tell me where they came from so I asked the husband and he said they learned them in chin na and admitted to me that they incoorparated them in this "traditonal" Karate and gave them Japanese names. They also wouldn't spar me or let me spar any students and there excuse was no students were black belt yet and they only wanted to let black belts spar. I only trained 3 times and pretty much wasted a month's tuition...it's a shame too because it was convenient for me but Karate without any realistic kumite is ballet to me.

.

I totally argree with you, there are to many people who abuse the karate kulture, first of all why would a traditional karate master, incorparate moves from other non karate styles, maybe for some fight realisme(some ground fighting) but then it wouldent be karate, would it. I also agree that kata with out kumite, is more like a dance than martial arts and when I train a self defense system, it is for self defense and not sport or beauty. But i also think that kumite without proper kata traning is weak, there is a reason why a karateka - trains his kata they are the foundation of karate and the karate sprite.

I also dislike "martial arts" like MMA. MMA reminds me of a cock fight, you put 2 human beings in a cage and they just beat eachouther to a pulp, there is no spirte in that, no respect, there is only aggresion. I know that it will proberly be very effective on the street, but i think mentaly you will become a beast, with no inner peace. MMA wil never be MMA - do.

[Satori]

Originally Posted by hoihoi

I totally argree with you, there are to many people who abuse the karate kulture, first of all why would a traditional karate master, incorparate moves from other non karate styles, maybe for some fight realisme(some ground fighting) but then it wouldent be karate, would it.

The way people fight is constantly changing and if karate's original purpose of self-defence is to remain, karate must also change to suite the context. Without evolution, karate will be nothing more than a cultural curiosity. What's the point of having a martial art that is not martial in nature? If karate hadn't evolved, it would be very different from what we have today.

Originally Posted by hoihoi

I also dislike "martial arts" like MMA. MMA reminds me of a cock fight, you put 2 human beings in a cage and they just beat eachouther to a pulp, there is no spirte in that, no respect, there is only aggresion. I know that it will proberly be very effective on the street, but i think mentaly you will become a beast, with no inner peace. MMA wil never be MMA - do.

The whole point of MMA is to "get to the point". They are only interested in what actually works, not in whether some things look good. Thanks to MMA, karate practitioners can see how effective techniques really are against all kinds of fighters, from wrestlers to boxers, and now they avoid using techniques that leave them over exposed or with a stance that is too wide or narrow. Evolution in progress.

I disagree when you say there is no respect and no spirit. While there are always bad apples, opponents in MMA come together just as exponents of the same style do. It takes a lot of spirit to step into that ring and to continue when someone's lying on you, beating you to a pulp. MMA is more of a system of rules than an actual "style", but thanks to MMA a lot of people have snapped out of this trance where they think their style is flawless. The best way to test your style's effectiveness is to fight someone from a completely different style, and MMA provides this opportunity.

[hoihoi]

Originally Posted by Satori

The way people fight is constantly changing and if karate's original purpose of self-defence is to remain, karate must also change to suite the context. Without evolution, karate will be nothing more than a cultural curiosity. What's the point of having a martial art that is not martial in nature? If karate hadn't evolved, it would be very different from what we have today.


The whole point of MMA is to "get to the point". They are only interested in what actually works, not in whether some things look good. Thanks to MMA, karate practitioners can see how effective techniques really are against all kinds of fighters, from wrestlers to boxers, and now they avoid using techniques that leave them over exposed or with a stance that is too wide or narrow. Evolution in progress.

I disagree when you say there is no respect and no spirit. While there are always bad apples, opponents in MMA come together just as exponents of the same style do. It takes a lot of spirit to step into that ring and to continue when someone's lying on you, beating you to a pulp. MMA is more of a system of rules than an actual "style", but thanks to MMA a lot of people have snapped out of this trance where they think their style is flawless. The best way to test your style's effectiveness is to fight someone from a completely different style, and MMA provides this opportunity.

I can see your point, but if you keep i evolving karate more and more, eventually it will turn into another system and not karate the soul of karate will have diminshed.

And of the subject of mma, i understand the effictivte of the system mixing different systems toghter, and only using the teq that are useful and casting away the teq that are not. But have you ever seen an mma match, there is nothing spiritual about 2 guys lying on eachoughter while on of them is punching the other one in the face with the outmost hate, just to they can win som stupid trophy. Though is it very effeictive in street use.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by hoihoi

.

I totally argree with you, there are to many people who abuse the karate kulture, first of all why would a traditional karate master, incorparate moves from other non karate styles, maybe for some fight realisme(some ground fighting) but then it wouldent be karate, would it. .

Ahhh what????
All Karate backgrounds is from non Karate forms i.e. chinse etc....

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by jap man

Ahhh what????
All Karate backgrounds is from non Karate forms i.e. chinse etc....

I was thinking the same thing.
Karate has always , ALWAYS, imported techniques and influences from other arts. Mostly, but not exclusively, from china.
This btw goes for all other arts aswell, Muaythai has historically been strongly influenced from china and more recently from european boxing, chinese arts derives atleast partially from indian arts, tkd derives from karate.

Trying to find a core to remain true to is ok, but trying to completely lock yourself out from outside influence leads to stagnation.

[FutureProdigy]

Originally Posted by blackshield

We also did a huge amount of multiple attacker sparring, still full contact... sometimes involving weapons defence. For me this is what traditional karate should be - a well rounded hollistic system, trained in a realistic way. The reason I say all this is because I have now started Kyokushin - the reason being that the Goju clubs here seem to contain zero realism or substance (the tippy tappy crap that everyone knows). The kyokushin on the other hand doesn't contain quite the breadth of areas that I am looking to cover - but what it does do it does very very well (hard strike based fighting).

I have been struggling with this concept as well. I would like to study a comprehensive form of karate, like your former goju club but all the 'complete' forms of karate in my area practice soft kumite... which for me automatically erases them from the choice menu. I really enjoy kyokushin A LOT but its lack of comprehensiveness concerning throws, locks, and the ground has been something I am struggling to make sense of. I really want to continue with kyokushin but also want a more rounded education.

I'm starting to realize that if one wants this, especially in North America, one may have to cross train. Thus, I am looking to get back into judo... which will hopefully fill some holes left in kyokushin.

[blackshield]

I agree with Satori, any martial art that is based on reality and self-defence must evolve. This does not mean that it becomes something other than 'goju karate' or 'uechi karate' or 'wing chun' or whatever - so long as throughout the process of evolution you remain true to the fighting principles and mechanics of the system. Modern progression in sports science, physiology etc will help us to develop more sophisticated methods to achieve the goals that we desire, and will allow us to develop to higher levels than perhaps outdated and scientifically unsound methods would. Changes in society (and the society that you live in) mean that the types of attacks people encounter change over time, and you must find answers within your art to meet these changes. This IS 'traditional' training - by following the tradition of those that formed the art that you know study. Drawing on outside influences can only strengthen your art - this is not a new thing either - Miyagi trained with hawiian wrestlers, judo and jitsu guys and in various styles of paqua /white crane /five ancestors fist /dog boxing and with numerous different karate styles in developing goju. The key is to have an in depth enough knowledge in your art to know what to assimilate and what to discard - and most of that process comes from finding out what works - much like what has happened to MMA, which has become a style in itself rather than the 'mix' of martial arts that it started out as.

[blackshield]

totally agree - the 'core' that you should remain true to (if any) are the fighting principles that you believe in, and that work for you/make sense for you.

[Spirit]

Martin...
OSU!!!!!!

[meguro]

Originally Posted by hoihoi

The reason why i want to train kyokushin (strong karate as it also is called) is because of the power, the full contact. I am just a little scared of that kyokushin has become a litte too sporty, too much of tournament focus, i do not really care about titels or piceses of metal hung around my neck. I want too follow the budo way of karate. The spirte of a karateka. I want budo karate not sporto karate.

I commend you on doing all the research you've done before taking the plunge. Most people who start are less informed. You're off to a good start and will likely find what you're looking for.

I want to address your impression that Kyokushin has become too sporty. I think it's fair to say that a very small percentage of Kyokushin karateka win titles and have glitzy medals hung from their necks. Most competitors have absolutely no chance of standing on the victor's platform. For many, it is one failure after another. The point is to challenge yourself and learn from the experience.

I happen to like the tournament system. How else can Kyokushin claim to be the strongest karate if it isn't constantly testing itself and evolving? It takes an incredible amount of spirit, not to mention talent, to make it through the tournament system. The winnners and contenders end up leading the organization, and that's what keeps it vibrant and always relevant.

[Paedde]

I think most things are said.

You shouldn't disrespect MMA that much. I know, a lot of fighters are brawlers, but most of them won't win a title or something, they get outsmartet by the true fighters. There are also some Kyokushin based fighters there, if you are interested watch a few fights of GSP (Georges Saint-Pierre).

And never forger, whatever Martial Art you take, it is just as good as the effort you put in it. Good luck in finding a dojo which you enjoy and are able to learn a lot.

[steffmeister]

Osu!

Now that some time has passed since this thread started, I am curious to find out what dojo you ended up in?