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[seienchin]

There has been some interesting discussion in other threads about the role of kata, and the difference between kata and kumite training.
The traditional view is that kata is training for kumite.
The modern perspective (as I observe the behaviour of young tournament-oriented fighters) is that kata are an optional extra, that you can largely ignore if you only want to do tourneys, but that you need to do if you want to pass gradings.

I am interested in hearing the perspectives from all sides. If you are a tournament fighter and you think kata is rubbish - let rip!. Alternatively, if you are a tournament fighter and you have been helped by kata training - share your views. Also intersted in instructors views on students who shun kata training, and on those who hide in it, to the exclusion of all else.

Waiting with bated breath....

[Martin H]

I am no tournament fighter. I have never had the right "killer instinct" for it.
But I think you can pretty much ignore kata if you are going to train for tournaments. Not because kata is worthless for kumite, but because it has very little to do with tournament rules kumite. Kata, the few times bunkai´s are given, have more to do with street situations than knockdown tournaments. They dont start at long distance with a judge saying "hajime" -instead they usually start in swinging range, usually with the "badguy" grabbing your collar or arm in preparation for giving you a good trashing. They dont ban gappling, face punces, eyepokes, strikes to the spine/joint/throat/kidney or attacks to the groin. Instead they actively teach those things.
Not that good bunkai is taught... well basically anywhere. And kata without bunkai is just aerobic/mental exercises. Not fight training.

[Spirit]

As a young fighter I was always told that great kata people are great fighters... but I never could understand/believe this since all the great kata people I fought where less than effective.
I hated kata and complained every time we did it (though I never gave less than %100 when doing kata)
As I got older, body changes and the mind widens, one does look at things (sometimes not always) differently. Even though I at 48 perfure to fight and bleed a little, kata has a more focused part of my training and I logically see it for what is. Part of my karate nothing more nothing less (part of the circle that without it, you can't move forward nor backwards)

I believe that the incorrect mind state is taught around kata and that the "killler" mind should be emphasized since kata's beginning emulates battles fought (most likely or close to) the death! they are a stry being told of wars and battles once fought...
Like that story being told, if emmotions and drama is left out the story has no life or heart... Kata is the same, a story that must be reinacted with the same vigor as the first time it played out. YES many katas are made up and do not represent true or actual battles etc, though their idologies are the same and the same energies from the kata that are from true or emplied battles from the past must be carried in to each kata of today.
We look at or are taught that... Kata is a series of "fighting or defensive moves" that imply other blocks, strikes, lock and throws as well actual punches, kicks, blocks, stances and throws. Yet we see them "Kata", as a spiritual god that ways heavies on the test of each ones abilities and the test of rank is given into kata more than most other parts of empty hand disciplines?

Or that the workout (kata) is so intense that it supersedes all others?
If one can't master kata then one is not a truely Karateka??? I find this so out of the true froms of empty hand arts... the true form as a "do" art is to master ones self in all araeas not just one or two. No one part is better, more efective or controlling over the others. all equal one, and all must be present to make one.
And not to take sport or compitions or test into play...

[Billy no mates]

I dont think Kata is valueless but for tournament fighting the simple fact is there are more relevant and efficent methods of training for fighting in the ideal world we would practice all disciplines in depth but if i needed to get someone up to scratch quickly i wouldnt use Kata .
Conversely in the long term the exclusive use of such methods would probably be detrimental to one becoming a well rounded Karateka,so i suppose you pays your money and makes yer choice as it were .

[supergroup7]

I believe that kata helps form the mind, body, spirit connection when performed in the proper spirit. As a young one in the Arts, it will be hard for me to explain in words what I have learned through experience, but here goes:

When I face someone in sparring, and my mind goes into what I call "kata" mode, things will just flow smoothly. If I attempt to think too much, the sparring becomes more bumpy.

What is "kata" mode? It's when one's mind is quiet, and one becomes the moment. They live for the now, and react to each breath/ technique as if it was their last. The kata "sings" it's lessons into you. It becomes your blood. It pulses, changes, and exists for that moment only.

Kata done properly is like "moving Mokuso" which centralizes your mind, and creates the ideal fighting spirit.

The bunkai of kata is not meant for sparring. It is directed to life-threatening self defense moments where one needs to break, damage, and kill their opponent. Tearing out their eyes, crashing through their skull, crushing their testicles.. moments of war.. where it is your life, or theirs. This is why kata exists. We would not keep too many students, and training partners in a dojo where we would practice these devastating techniques on them. Within a few weeks, we'd have dozens of blind, maimed, and dead students. So we train with these techniques in kata with the same intensity as if fighting for our lives. The better you become at applying your whole body, mind, and spirit in your kata the more conditioning you will achieve from it's performance.
At the end of one kata, done in this manner, you will feel their heart beating so strongly that it feels like it will leap out of your chest. It will feel like you just ran up a steep mountain carrying 20 pounds on your back. Then, you ask your body to do MORE kata like that. Within a dozen kata, a karate ka should start to feel the burning of exhausted muscles, the intense need to breath deeply to continue fueling the effort... and yet, the inner call is to continue with the kata, to face yet another moment of "fighting for your life".

Gosh.. I love kata.

[nzproud]

Being in my 20s and have less experience than most of you, I must say that I'm not very fond of doing katas. I would rather do tournament trainings. But as I step up in belts, I have to be a good example of lower belts. This is what keeps me learning katas(sometimes ). Doing katas are very good to learn the basic form of techniques and also can be good trainings.
I think everyone has experiened when your instructor starts talking when you are still in good zenkutsu dachi or koukutsu dachi.. it's pretty hard to maintain the form for a long time!

[Shokei Marcsui]

Training should be event specific. Kata and Kumite all have it's place in kyokushin, each requires a different training methodology.

[DKKC]

You are what you train

Martin H and Shokei Marcsui - I agree with you both!

[shidokanatlanta]

kata is for focus, technique, precision, and self development. it teaches body movement, weight transfer into techniques. is this necessary for the competitive fighter? yes and no. if one is to be a martial artist, yes. if he solely wishes to be the martial athlete, no. in tournament karate (that have kata and kumite divisions), usually the the fighters have bad kata and the good kata guys can't fight that well. it is rare to see one is great at both. as a former fighter (tkd, boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, shidokan triathlon), i would first say no, kata is not necessary for the fighter. but, as i reflect back on my experiences, i cannot deny that my early training in kihon and kata had a profound influence on my delivery of technique. i think kata and kihon training give you a student who is easier to train and teach fighting technique.

i now promote fights (shidokan, kickboxing, and thai boxing) now, and it is rare to find athletes who would care about karate kata. it is rare that i can even get fighters with karate experience to fight on the shows. most fighters focus on fight training for their sport (being sports specific). i train fighters for knockdown, muay thai, boxing, mma, and triahlon rules. my brown belts are fight (underbelts can do karate but only advance students can do the other stuff). atleast you know they (brown belts) have discipline and focus and will stay around longer than just fighters (who will usually quit once they're done fighting). i do believe that the discipline and self control one gets from kata and kihon transfers to fighting (and to other things in life), but is not a necessity for the competive martial athlete, most good fighters (even knockdown karateka) aren't great kata men.

[seienchin]

Hmmm Shidokanatlanta - I have not heard the distinction before of "martial athlete" vs "martial artist". I like it.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by supergroup7

I believe that kata helps form the mind, body, spirit connection when performed in the proper spirit. As a young one in the Arts, it will be hard for me to explain in words what I have learned through experience, but here goes:

When I face someone in sparring, and my mind goes into what I call "kata" mode, things will just flow smoothly. If I attempt to think too much, the sparring becomes more bumpy.

What is "kata" mode? It's when one's mind is quiet, and one becomes the moment. They live for the now, and react to each breath/ technique as if it was their last. The kata "sings" it's lessons into you. It becomes your blood. It pulses, changes, and exists for that moment only.

Kata done properly is like "moving Mokuso" which centralizes your mind, and creates the ideal fighting spirit.

The bunkai of kata is not meant for sparring. It is directed to life-threatening self defense moments where one needs to break, damage, and kill their opponent. Tearing out their eyes, crashing through their skull, crushing their testicles.. moments of war.. where it is your life, or theirs. This is why kata exists. We would not keep too many students, and training partners in a dojo where we would practice these devastating techniques on them. Within a few weeks, we'd have dozens of blind, maimed, and dead students. So we train with these techniques in kata with the same intensity as if fighting for our lives. The better you become at applying your whole body, mind, and spirit in your kata the more conditioning you will achieve from it's performance.
At the end of one kata, done in this manner, you will feel their heart beating so strongly that it feels like it will leap out of your chest. It will feel like you just ran up a steep mountain carrying 20 pounds on your back. Then, you ask your body to do MORE kata like that. Within a dozen kata, a karate ka should start to feel the burning of exhausted muscles, the intense need to breath deeply to continue fueling the effort... and yet, the inner call is to continue with the kata, to face yet another moment of "fighting for your life".

Its like saying I get into a "car mind" when I enter my car...

It is more about comfort than anything else.

[supergroup7]

"Its like saying I get into a "car mind" when I enter my car..."

It's more like saying like getting into the "zone"... where one's mind is quiet, and still, and no longer worries about future, or past, but just reacts to the moment. Time stands still, and no longer matters. The "I" ceases to exist.

Again, I turn to music to explain this phenomenon. As soon as I'd start to play a piece of music, I no longer needed to worry about which fingering, or phrasing, or dynamics, I just "played" it. Sometimes it almost felt like the song played itself. It is like the music became it's own entity. It's the same with kata, kumite, or kihon.. when I can achieve the mental presence of what I have named "kata mode", no longer do I need to worry about target, power, blocking, nor striking. Similar to how Bruce Lee explains it "A good fight should be like a small play...but played seriously. When the opponent expands, l contract. When he contracts, l expand. And when there is an opportunity... l do not hit...it hits all by itself (shows his fist)."

I may not be explaining what I call "Kata mode" properly, so you may not be grasping what I'm trying to say.. because comparing it to "car mind" as something you put yourself in when you enter a car boxes the idea into one section. It segments the concept into only one aspect. This is too restrictive.

The 'zone', or "kata mode" can be felt at many times, in any of those moments when one is focused on the "now", and suspended in time with a quiet mind, such as in mokuso ( meditation), or in painting, or in dancing, or in football, or in golf, etc. etc.

[seienchin]

Osu Supergroup7 - I think you are trying to describe the state of zen no-mindedness? I actually think that this is what kata is aimed at helping us to achieve, but I might be wrong about that. I know from others' posts on the forums that there is debate about karate having any links to Zen at all, but my own training was very heavily influenced by an assumption that Zen was interwoven throughout Kyokushin.

As a fellow (aspiring) muso, I can also relate to hitting that place in when a piece of music plays well, and without conscious effort. It is not automatic - otherwise it would sound like an automaton. But the expression, the dynamics, the rubato - it all somehow come together in a way that it is hard to explain. I believe this is "zen and the art of guitar playing" - as guitar is my instrument.

In kata - it is when one gets to the end of the kata and can't remmber doing it. But onlookers say it was electrifying.

I also can relate to Jap Man's advicea bout emotion. I can remember being taught that gaze is essential in developing the emotional content of kata. The gaze must shift first, before turning the body, as one sizes up one's opponent, (And hopefully turns their bowels to liquid with the force of one's gaze).

If I can presume to pull this thread together - the punches and kicks in kata training are not terribly useful to tournament fighters, any more than kihon are - they help to develop technique, but won't take you the whole way. However, there are other aspects of kata training taht might benefit an aspiring tournament champion, if kata training is done with the correct approach, and not merely mindless repetitions of silly meaningless movements!

[supergroup7]

Osu Seienchin, I do not know much about zen, but the description that you provided fits what I feel as I do kata. Thank you.

I agree that the techniques in the kata may not provide much for a tournament fighter as the goal of kata is to remind us of life/death street type defense rather than anything else. It is not a collection of effective tournament combinations, unless it is acceptable to attack the groin, eyes, throat, and neck of their opponent in tournament.

[shidokanatlanta]

for those saying bunkai in kata is for self defense, i think that the karateka who competes is going to better prepared in real situations. the emotions he experiences during competition is similar to those he experiences in an aggressive confrontation. the physical and mental stress of kata training is not the same as competition. the competitor is going to be conditioned for combat. the competitor is use to contact (giving and receiving), fighting through fatigue and pain. sure in reality you can stike the groin, eyes, hit the joints, etc. the very nature of knockdown fighting (along with other martial sports) were created to test one's self against trained fighters who are executing techniques with bad intention. you can't duplicate that with kata training. if that was the case, more time would be devoted to it by competitors (instead they do cardio, bag, pads, and spar, spar, fight, fight...). therefore, competitors must train differently. and as far as self defense, don't over analyze theories of bunkai. we all should know what adjustments to make (as far as from competition to self defense). and one thing is for sure, if you can knock down a trained, conditioned athlete, you can handle yourself in reality. an emphasis on kata training is not going to create that (in or out of competition). as students we train kata and kihon, yes. as competitors, you better do more on the sparring, conditioning and fighting side.

[Martin H]

shidokanatlanta. I got no argument against knockdown preparing you better for real fights thn only training bunkai. But knockdown, while having the hard contact and high adrenaline that bunkai training lack, do not have realistic situations.
In a fight you do not begin at a safe distance, moving in cautiously taking the meassure of your opponent. Possibly in a prearranged all-out duel, but not in a fight in the line to get into your local pub.
Fights start at close distance and is fast and furious.

Knockdown training makes you physically tough, mentally prepared, and hard hitting.
bunkai training (if properly done) gives you training in self defense situations, using techniques banned in competition. Especially in clinch range, where most knockdown frankly have nothing.

Kata should be approached in 4 stages.
1. Learn the kata.
2. Learn the bunkai for the kata moves.
3. Learn the variations of the techniques&principles taught in the basic bunkai.
4. Take the techniques and principles into live training as far as possible.

Sadly today we almost never get beyond step 1, and in step 2 most bunkai we are shown have little to do with realism.

But Kata is just a storage for the bunkai. and if you teach the techniques from bunkai as standalone without associating them to the katas, fine I got no problem with that.. The kata are just a traditional memory aid, and a ineffective one at that (otherwise we would not be having this discussion).

Doing just bunkai, does not prepare you mentally or physically for a real fight.
Doing formal kata without realistic bunkai is not useful for knockdown competition OR self defense.
Doing only knockdown training can let you win a real fight just by being tough, but its better to be tough AND trained for real situations. It is however vastly superior training for knockdown competitions.

Preferably you should do both bunkai and knockdown if you want self defense training. But if you are training for knockdown competitions, you are not training for self defense and should concentrate on that

[orisha66]

You can also option to do only kata and no kumite at the shiai's. Some people are better at kata then kumite, doesnt mean that they cant fight their own battles.
Kata is not useless, i feel that some deshi and their sensei have gotten lazy. they dont try to look outside of the box that they are trapped in. kata should evolve along with the practitioner---find the relationship of yesterday and today.
To prepare for anything you have to train for that thing.
As far as kata, sport fighting(any type), and real streetfighting.
Each has its own spirit. you have the Extreme kata competitor and the traditionalist, depending on the tournament, trad or extreme, you have to train differently for these two different styles of kata competition. Now sport combat be it full-contact, NHB, Knock-down, boxing etc. these are all sport with sets of rules, the same as point fighting which is of course less contact but all of these are just that...competition, a sport. a street fighter on the otherhand, one who practices his martial art for preservation and defense has no rules to hold him back. The MMA practisioner has rules and traines to win. The streetfighter will prepare himself with kata to strengthen the body and mind, he will train with weights and makiwara and bags to condition the mind and body he will train with the same Mentality of the competitor who is going for the big purse and fame but his desire is to live. so i say train like the champion kata person, train like the MMA fighter, and train your bunkai as if you are going to war because that is what it is, thats what it was designed for and it has worked this way since the beginning. thats why there is the trinity of martial arts, no matter how you train them, they all have them. they might not be called the same but they are all there...kihon,kata,kumite.

[AE]

This is a very interesting threat. I agree with Martin H. I would add that I think that competition kata has little to do with karate since it never considers understanding as part of the competition. Kata without bunkai is just bad aerobics, and kata with bunkai is useless in tournament fights.

In tournaments, if you are required to perform kata, then you focus in the form of the performance. But if they required you to understand kata, then you would have to do your bunkai and probably, you would have to explain verbally fighting principles taught in the kata you are showing.

However, a proper kata practice requires you to practice lots of bunkai: low speed, medium speed, high speed, full force, with uncooperative partner, with cooperative partner, etc. The problem is that you can not use most of those techniques in tournament. Let's say "sanseru". That is my favorite kata (I practice goju ryu). It teaches sabaki (you move around your opponent), techniques to get at infighting distance, and techniques to break, to smash ankles and knees. In tournament, you will not break any knee, but if somebody tries to rape your daughter in an alley, then it may be acceptable to do so, and (according to circumstances) you will probably not have any problem in a court of law.

I also think that for competition, everybody is getting the right training: kyokushin trains for a kind of competition, daido juku for competiton with different rules, shotokan train for their kind of tournament, and so on. So it is not better or worse, but different sets of rules for different kinds of tournaments. Change the rules of tournaments, and you are not changing the systems, only the tournaments.

What I don't get is why too many people don't practice kata properly. I am not thinking about competiton, but just kata training: since bunkai is the analysis of kata in order to extract techniques, kata training should have at least three components: kata performance, kata analysis (to extract bunkai and fighting principles) and application drills (to ingrain the bunkai in your muscle memory).

[kanku]

i have to admit kata was something i did when i had to grade+ avoided at all other times!

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by hasbeen

i have to admit kata was something i did when i had to grade+ avoided at all other times!

Now that you are older and wiser, do you regret this? Or is there plenty of time to do kata after your tournament days are over?