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I am starting this thread with a great deal of trepidation, I wanted to start it a few days ago but I found that because of (and I declare an agenda right now) a very dark and painful period in my life it was difficult to even think of a situation where deliberate pain/ injury inflicted on a child could be considered OK under any pretext.

I will be honest and say that after reading some of the posts in the K4L forums I felt emotionally drained and close to tears at what was considered Ok , and even worse what was proposed to be allowed in the future in child fights.

I know there are those who having read the last paragrpah will write me off as a weakling, sissy, gutless, frightened, girlie, poofter, whatever. Have fun I have heard it all before.

Let me be clear I have ( admittedly many years ago) been involved in probably more real (not in a 'safe' dojo) violence than many karate practitioners. I am not talking the mindless thuggery of drunken oafs, but the real hatred and violence of London in the 60s/70s when black fought white, communist fought nazi, loyalist fought republican. Not in ones and twos but in hundreds and sometimes thousands. Many were injured some even killed on the streets. I personally was a senior official of an organisation (the cause I worked for is of no consequence now), heavily involved in this.
I have been hospitalised more than once, I even had myself beaten up in order to get credibility with opponents. I even managed a couple of pages in a book wrtitten about political extremism.
What is the point of all this old history, to show that as far as violence is concerned I have considerable personal experience. Experience that has left me with a deep dislike of violence and brutality of any sort, and especially that which involves kids. And yes I am proud of the fact that the prospect of kids getting seriously for sport makes me feel so sad.

Now to the point. what is the connection between my life and Kyokushin. And as I am an 'outsider' (non dojo member/ ex member etc) who gives a rats**** what I think in any case.

1.On looking through the various threads I find diametrically opposing viewpoints expressed. One is that the safety and the welfare of kids is a paramount consideration, the other is that this consideration is subservient to promoting kyokushin philosophy of you must win no matter what the cost. ( Atleast that is what it seems to be).

2. That there appears to be plansto bring in some particularly brutal moves into competition, this will inevitable mean that kids will betrained and required to use these moves. I refer to hold down and knee strikes into the unprotected face , damaging nose, mouth and even the eyes. Also direct attacks on the groin which surely is done to cause maximum pain with the possibility of damage to the male organs, as in order to have any effect ( if the oppnent is wearing protection)the blows must be devastating in power or perhaps it is intended not to have protection at all.

3. There is no way that ordinary kids really want to hurt each other , even in fights there comes a point when the winning kid will say I have done enough I don't want to continue. I see it as signiificant that in looking through the philosophy I canot find one mention of respect for an opponent. Cetainly respect for instructors and fellow students of a dojo but no mention of respect for an opponent who seems to be objectiified ( treated as if he has no feelings and is an object not a living person) it makes it easier to hurt people when you don't consider them as being able to feel fear or pain.I know!

You don't have to point a gun at someone especially a kid to get them to do what they would normally not want to do. The process is simply to convince them that what they are told to do is Ok. The other person doesn't matter he is from another dojo. Its what is expected. You must not be a softie. Put an opponent down heavy and hard it will scare the kids from the other dojo, they wont want to fight .

Ican hear the questions now, why is this person using our forum to tell us how we don,t care about kids.Why doesn't he bugger off and spread his lies elsewhere etc etc.

Why ? Simple, I know that for many of you what I say is totally wrong you would never think or do what I have suggested. However there are some who may see nothing wrong with the changes to rules that I have seen proposed which can lead to seriousinjury to kids even if that was never the intention. There are some who believe that kids should be allowed to fight with little or no protection and take their chances on injury, because,as I have seen it expressed,it is the "Kyokushin Way".

Yes have gone a bit overboard and have looked at worst case scenarios , but what I have talked about is there on your forums.

I made a commitment before I started this thread that I would not knowingly offend members. I realise that I may well have done so and for that I apologise. I have tried to show that some things can lead to a child being hurt for no good reason.

I believe the right to say NO is something that must be protected and instilled into kids by any organisation or body that is involved with their training. No instructor should ever punish a child who has refused to do something that will cause hurt/ injury to another. The decision to not inflict unnecessary pain/ injury should be treated with respect for the kid has shown decency and respect for another when it was in his power to inflict more. Maybe the kid may lose a match but he will have gained much as a human being, And that truly is a great lesson in life. When you can hurt someone and you don't have to , then don't. I am proud that I have made that decision many times, I have never regretted it. The memories of the times I made another choice I have to live with until I die.

What do I want from this forum ( if I am not about to be removed already).Perhaps how do others feel , do they think I am a total moron, do they believe what I say it total rubbish, then tell me so, tell me why I am wrong.I want to be wrong so much because that mens that the fears I have about what may happen are unfounded. Have I got it all wrong, are there safeguards I hope to God that I don't understand what is really intended.

I don't have anything againt Kyokushin or any other martial art for that matter ( except boxing involving kids) It should be positive, fun, a wayto learn life skills, discipline ( though not the physical kind) make friends enjoy the experience and treat everyone including opponents with respect as human beings. Being a kid should be a time for enjoying life not being told to use another one as a punchig bag.

I would like to perhaps look at joining a dojo ( for geriatrics possibly) ifI am not already blacklisted by every practitioner in the universe. And I will go to tournaments to see the real life. ( I Have attnded an AKKA ? non contact (KIds) and full contact International (Open 17+) I don't know if that i the same as this form.

Again I have no wish to offend anyone, but I have to say what I feel is right,If anyone wishes to reply , and feels that I need to be told bluntly that I have no idea what I am talking about , then I will respect their right to say it, and more importantly take on board whtever points are made about why I am wrong.

I do NOT believe that any one involved in Kyokushin is a child abuser let me make that perfectly clear.

I thank you for your time -Voortigen

[seienchin]

Well Voortigen - to make one thing very clear - I'm not about to ban anyone for asking reasonable and well thought out questions, and I think I can say that for the rest of the mods too. and if I still had my dojo, you'd be very welcome there.

The world is a diverse place, and across cultures and nations, attitudes vary. what I see reflected in the diverse positions posted in the forum about child participation in karate is the diversity of the world. I don't think there is anything more sinister than that.

Attitudes and tolerance towards violence also vary. For example, in Queensland in Australia, it was not possible for a man to be charged with rape of a woman if he was married to her, until about the mid 1990s. Looking back now, that seems nuts, but to the lawmakers of the 19th century, it seemed perfectly logical, because she was his property.

I think it is a given that all peoples, of all races, persuasions, and sports, love their children. However, some terrible acts of child abuse are committed in the name of sport, as parents chase excellence and fame for their little ones. This is not something that is confined to one sport/undertaking such as karate, but is spread across many. For example, there was recently a big inquiry in Australia into the treatment of juvenile gymnasts by a coach in our national program. Swimming programs can require children to train for 4 hours a day. Football can encourage thuggery and violence. At the end of the day, much of this comes down to the parents and coaches.

In the karate context, it is always about choosing the right dojo, and the right instructor. You will find bullies and thugs in all martial arts, kyokushin included. But you will also find them in every other sport.

There is a fine line between challenging and allowing children to experience risk and success, vs being negligent of our duty to protect them. But in all the kids with broken arms I have seen in many, many years of working in emergency departments, none of them have been from karate! Plenty from other sports.

I suspect your real concern is not about the physical risk, but about the risk to the developing psyche of exposure to a culture where violence is normalised. This is where the choice of dojo and instructor is absolutely critical. A good instructor abhors violence. Remember the dojo kun, which specifies that we kyokushin practitioners will refrain from violence.

A good instructor, who teaches the kyokushin way, can instil in students an understanding that violence is an attitude of the heart, perhaps even more than it is an action of the body. So violence CAN occur on the tatami in a tournament, but kumite can also occur without violence. A cricket coach who teaches kids to belittle and harass their opponents is teaching more violence, potentially, than a karate instructor is. At the end of the day, it is all about choosing the right instructor in the right dojo.

Something that I haven't understood from your post is why you are seeking so hard to undertand us. I commend you for asking questions, and the respectful way in which you have posted a potentially controversial view. Let's see what other members think!

[Spirit]

Offending, I don't think you did...
But it seems that you are preaching your manifesto to us.

The fact that you are not a M/A makes me wonder what your well written and compassionate statement really means or directed to!?! What was it that sparked you need to post?

I can say with any certainty since I do not know who you are, but.... it almost sounds like a confession, more than a complaint?


Your post reminded me of a Law that is now trying to be passed in Boston and the commonwealth on NO SPANKING for any reason by anyone (parents included). Jailing anyone who does.

I think that if you take that manner with Karate (though I think it is not needed) you would have to take that manner with all contact sports played. Since winning is the main thing taught in contact sports (not including M/A's) I would say that they are far more violent than Karate is. Coaches teach their 4 year olds to win at any cost, the parents fight and scream in the stands.

And since team sports is just replaces war with a sport environment, we perpetuate war in the minds of children every time we sign them up to "play"
Karate one has the choice to compete in Kumite or Kata or non at all. You don't have that choice in team contact sports!

I believe that your energy maybe best served in helping battered children. The time and effort you put into that vs how tourney's would be best to serve those kids, since you do have compassion for the kids, you are articulate, your efforts would serve them.

As for being blackballed, a little dramatic would you not say.
No one even knows who you are, where you are from or anything...

If you think people who are involved with Karate are violent and narrow minds (as it seem to be played out in your post) then you have to take a new look.
Labeling do to what activity we choose to involve ourselves in is not the way to go.
their is good in bad in all, Karate or not.
Karate does not make anyone better or worse.

[Olrac]

I have almost nothing to add to the previous posts.
All I want to add is that, if a child speaks out the desire to compete in tournaments (in our country that is full contact) they are fully protected. That means gloves, chins, mouthguard, groin and head protection. Besides all the protection, there are referee's and coaches that can stop the match at all times.
In our dojo (I can't speak for others) no child/student will be forced to compete in tournaments. Not even if the parents want them to..

[guty]

ill say that all martial arts ,are to make you control anger and frustation, violence comes not from having ackward feelings cause everybody has them...violence comes when their is ignorance abbout one self and failure in knowing what to do with does HUMAN feelings,if you practice martial arts you could never be violent or controless because youll make a lot of mistakes and could never think well, if you get angry, unbalance or discontroled youll certainly will get your buttocks kicked!, training martial arts gives self control self knowlege and dicipline...i cannot think on anything better for my kids,..i live in central america and violence here is not a thing of the 60"s and 70"s ...it still goes,sadly...,about the same issues you were pointing..
= POLITICS+MONEY+IDEALS..well....POLITICS IN THE END...nothing better to make the world a peacefull place then teach children how to control their mids and bodys , and at the same time not to run away from their problems, if one havent train enough its ones responsability and one pays the conssecuenses of his/her lazyness , withdraw from any problem nerver has make them to go away and thats why in my opinnion lern and teach how to "WIN" NO MATTER WHAT its so important ,our brains learn with examples,...as seienchin says...it all depends on the teacher and may i add on the background ,..in the basics ..."training" starts at home as everything else in life...
good day

[intwominds]

Hi voortigen,
I don't have any great knowledge of the proposed changes, all I can tell you is what I have experienced. Juniors in our dojo (and throughout our branch) are NOT permitted to fight full-contact kumite. As a parent of a young teenager who also does Kyokushin I can assure you that there is absolutely no pressure on them to participate in tournaments. As for the so-called Kyokushin philosophy of win at no cost, I have never been told that. As a senior student, I have also never been under any pressure to compete in tournaments, and if we do the point of competing is for the experience, not the winning. Wanting to win is a natural competitive component of most individuals, but I have never heard anyone being put-down or denigrated in any way for losing, usually our sempai says how proud they are for those students who compete. I have never seen a child (under 16) injured in the dojo, the only injury I have seen was a child with a black eye, but that was from a cricket ball. The most my child has ever received is a couple very light bruises from accidental contact, usually when one child strikes and the other blocks.
That said, tournaments are held with the understanding and full knowledge and acceptance of what they entail by both competitors.
As mentioned above, some dojos focus more on kumite, some focus more on basics, etc. so find the one that fits your needs.

[blackdog]

1 No, you didnt offend me

2 You seem to have thought out your post, so right or wrong is irrelevant, you have commented on what you see and your perception of that

In our dojo / branch, no child is permitted to compete in a contact fight. There is a "colts" division where 16-18 yr olds can fight contact with padding and helmets etc.

My children train, and i train with other peoples children, they have never been taught anything but the philosophies of the Kyokushin way (which in our dojo kun for example orders us to "refrain from violence" )

I have seen far worse injuries and violence involving children in the years i worked for a football club (aussie rules)

Children are not permitted to make contact in the dojo, and adults are not permitted to make contact with children.

Have i seen injuries? Yes, a few minor bumps and bruises, but nothing major. My 13 yr old was winded last weekend in his 7 th kyu grading (more from him moving onto a punch than his opponent trying to hurt him)

Have i seen thugs come through the system? Yes, sometimes, but i have yet to see one make it past 4th kyu, they simply can not handle the discipline required to make to the higher levels of Kyokushin Karate. (my experience only)

Your concerns to me seem reasonable ie that children should not be permitted to hurt each other or be hurt. As a parent i would want nothing less, and as a parent i would tolerate nothing less.

I think if a good parent had any hint of a concern about a dojo philosophy on violence they would pull their children out of it. In fact i would say that if a parent did not remove their child from an environment they were concerned about then they wouldn't be good parents, therefore the child in that case would have more to worry about.

Basically, there are more good parents than bad in the world, and that being said it makes sense that dojo who promote violence would not last very long.

One of the high rankng individuals i train under (who shall remain nameless as for the sake of this argument it is irrelevant) often says -

"We dont train people to be better fighters, that just happens, we train people to be better people"

As a parent i am totally satisfied my child is being taught to be a better person.

Bren

[vapor]

Thanks to everyone so far on their comments.

I think this is one of the most sincere set of replies that I have seen.

Given that the topic is of sober content, I appreciate everyone's thoughtfulness in their replies.

Bren, I think you nailed the essence about parents keeping their children from harms way---and that we are trained to be better people.

That is a fabulous quote, and a key factor that makes kyokushin different than simple sports...

vapor

[Spirit]

Well it seems that our L/M keyboarders have finally taken a break on giving their 2 cents on a post....

What I find so strange on this post is the title of the thread and the post don't really match up, nor did the writers comments seem to really focus on anything or anybody and really not on Karate either. It seemed to talk but not say anything nor explain anything....

My gut tells me this thread is a cry for help, not a plea for interest!!!

[mpeters]

Voortigen, as I have mentioned in previous threads the first time I saw a Full Contact Kyokushin Tournament, I too had the thoughts and feelings of “what’s happening here these guys are just beating the crap out of each other” and then to see children do the same thing, albeit fully protected, I just could not comprehend. That was nearly 5 years ago now, and my views have definitely come a full 180 degrees since then.

With training in Kyokushin you learn to see the hidden “beauty” (if that is the right word) in the art. You can understand the effort, discipline, blood, sweat, tears, that each karateka gives to improve himself or herself. This is true of child and adult alike.

I am a proud father of 3, and our whole family train in Kyokushin. 3 of us have fought in tournaments during those years and each of us has had differing experiences from it. Fear, pain, joy, pride, are all feelings that we have experienced during these trials.

My children have never been seriously injured from karate, I know they will be looked after on the mat not only from there skill, but from the judges, and sempai. In some ways I am almost envious of there resilience. Often after tournament when I have the “kyokushin shuffle” going on, they’re outside running around having fun, no damage to be seen anywhere.

I would like to point out that my sons also play rugby, and I have seen my 14 yr old get totally smashed in his games to the point you go “damn” and look away for a few secs. Rugby, in fact, is where our major injuries have come from, dislocated shoulders, sprained wrists and ankles, bruises and ruck marks just to name a few.

My sempai and I have never pushed them to fight, but have always encouraged them to try. As has already been said some children love it some don’t. I am proud of my children and to that fact any child that wishes to experience tournament fighting, and only hope they never have to see the “true violence” that you speak of. Tournaments are held in a controlled environment not like the violence you have experienced.

I’d also like to add, regarding your first comment. Like intwominds, I have never heard anyone from my IKO say that you must win at all costs, and in fact my Shihan, Sensei, and Sempai, always comment that you are already a winner for taking on the challenge of tournament fighting. Also in our dojo, tournament, particularly for children, is not about hurting your opponent. It is first and foremost about doing your best, facing your fears, and learning whether the techniques that you practise day in and day out work, and finally to have a go, the experience will always help you grow as a person. As far as your comment of no respect “for an opponent who seems to be objectified”. If you experience tournament fighting you know exactly what your opponent is going through. For this reason alone there is always a mutual respect.

My final comment to you Voortigen, is to experience it from the inside (train and learn) and you will undoubtedly change your views as myself and family did.

Osu

[Spirit]

This guy is just blowing smoke up everyone's asses....

He found a place to stand up on a podium and preach about something to get a rise out of and out of everyone I'd add more but it is to grafic.....

Though I must say everyone has done a great job of not giving him what he was looking for, a fight...
Good job to all.

Dear "Spirit"

I am somewhat at a loss to understand your comments. I fully appreciate the view that you express that I may be making a 'confession' rather than making a statement or asking a question. You will see you are not the only person to ask that question.

Let me say that I have never intentionally harmed a child and never would, whether you or anyone else believes that is something I have no control over.

I note that you wish to "add more but it is too graphic" and that I "am looking for a fight".

Perhaps you would like to explain these comments.

I may well have not put my views correctly, and it may apprear to be a challenge rather than a desire to learn. I am sorry if that is the case, it was not intentional.

I have not offered any 'fight' to anyone on this forum. I have been treated with respect and patience, and if I may say so, apart from yourself , with goodwill by other posters who seem to accept that I may blunder in what I think happens as opposed to what does happen.

If you have an issue with me.I have none with you. If you think you have something to say then say it, or post me privately if you prefer , to let me know what is so ' graphic'.

But please, I am not at war with anyone in your forum, I have no wish to fight any of them physically or otherwise. I am sorry you have taken this stance.

I will read all the posts and answer as well as I can questions raised about my motives, I may say that much of what has been said has gladdened me.

In view of the obvious personal hostility you have towards me and the fact that I have only recently joined the forum it may well be that I should look at leaving rather than continue to create hostility.


Voortigen

[nzproud]

Dear voortigen,

Have you seen this video clip of kyokushin kid vs chinese kid?
YouTube - 極真空手 vs 少林拳 ★ Kyokushin Karate vs Shoalin Xanda

I'm pretty sure that these kids like what they are doing. There is a chance that those kids have been forced to join a dojo when they were younger but who knows?

In my point of view, Budo is not supposed to be easy and especially kyokushin should be hard. So anyone in kyokushin should expect to be hurt sometimes in training. If they don't like it they usually drop out. Some kids may be forced to train by parents but it's their responsibility and instructor's responsibility to decide if one is capable of continuing training.

No instructor should ever punish a child who has refused to do something that will cause hurt/ injury to another. The decision to not inflict unnecessary pain/ injury should be treated with respect for the kid has shown decency and respect for another when it was in his power to inflict more.

I agree and not agree. Kids gain more confidence by fighting or bullied kids are limited to learn something. But I agree that we should not force anyone to fight. It can benefit sometimes though..

These kids fight to live in Thailand..
YouTube - muay thai kids

Some other story.

Buakaw Por Pramuk or Sombat Banchamek born on May 8, 1982 in Buriram (north eastern province of Thailand). Since he started his fighting career at the young age of 8, Buakaw has fought over 400 fights, starting in his home province of Buriram and then moving onto Bangkok after he moved to Por. Pramuk gym at the age of 15.

Buakaw has collected several belts to his name since fighting in Bangkok. The Omnoi Stadium featherweight title was his first belt, after that he would go on to take the featherweight champion of Thailand title.

Osu.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by voortigen

Dear "Spirit"
I am somewhat at a loss to understand your comments. I fully appreciate the view that you express that I may be making a 'confession' rather than making a statement or asking a question. You will see you are not the only person to ask that question.

I note that you wish to "add more but it is too graphic" and that I "am looking for a fight".

Perhaps you would like to explain these comments. .Voortigen

Old saying
Don't ask if you don't wish to hear the answer

Look I call it as I see it or in this case feel it...
I did not make any comment to a fight, just called it as it was played out.


1.On looking through the various threads I find diametrically opposing viewpoints expressed. One is that the safety and the welfare of kids is a paramount consideration, the other is that this consideration is subservient to promoting kyokushin philosophy of you must win no matter what the cost. ( Atleast that is what it seems to be).
Discipline and challaging is different than harming and abusing.
So I suppose all the cracks I got in school from the Nun's where abuse as well from my parents etc???

What is your agenda, why Kyokushin, why make statements that seem to be directed at those who find life in karate.

Yes their are always going to be opposing views, man does not follow one path nor one view. Life is in constant flux.

Please provide these threads/posts...


2. That there appears to be plansto bring in some particularly brutal moves into competition, this will inevitable mean that kids will betrained and required to use these moves. I refer to hold down and knee strikes into the unprotected face , damaging nose, mouth and even the eyes. Also direct attacks on the groin which surely is done to cause maximum pain with the possibility of damage to the male organs, as in order to have any effect ( if the oppnent is wearing protection)the blows must be devastating in power or perhaps it is intended not to have protection at all.

Assumption on your part. and when you assume you make an ass out of you and me...

Usually as fighter move forward in their careers they look for more challenging ways to compete (note the word compete)
Everyone has the right to compete in a way they feel OK, know of no dojo or group (not saying I know all, but I no of non) that allows children to fight in this manner.

3. There is no way that ordinary kids really want to hurt each other , even in fights there comes a point when the winning kid will say I have done enough I don't want to continue. I see it as signiificant that in looking through the philosophy I canot find one mention of respect for an opponent. Cetainly respect for instructors and fellow students of a dojo but no mention of respect for an opponent who seems to be objectiified ( treated as if he has no feelings and is an object not a living person) it makes it easier to hurt people when you don't consider them as being able to feel fear or pain.I know!

Please provide info on what dojo(s) or group(s) who do, so we can stand with you to correct it!!!!


So if you would explain to me what is "Ordinary"
since someone who is 10 or 12 and in a gang his life is ordinary to him, as for some child born with a silver spoon in their mouth that life is ordinary to them as well a child living in a jungle village they to have a ordinary life to them...

Well then you did not read all the comments on fighters and the respect they have for each other.
Frankly I'm surprised others did not pick this up, But MOST have respect for each other win loose or draw.
Having fought in over 100 tourney's I have friends I meet on the tourney floor, we fought hard and strong. But after became friends do to respect for each other, many of those friendships are 30 years old.
I'm just one of many I'm sure in this forum who can validate this within their own life in Karate.

You don't have to point a gun at someone especially a kid to get them to do what they would normally not want to do. The process is simply to convince them that what they are told to do is Ok. The other person doesn't matter he is from another dojo. Its what is expected. You must not be a softie. Put an opponent down heavy and hard it will scare the kids from the other dojo, they wont want to fight .

I think you have team sports mind set mixed with Karate. But then again their are those who just suck and they can be coaches or teachers in any sport...

Can you give us an example of who may have said this or where (tourney and year).

I have often pulled students (children and adults) from a tourney do to poor sportsmanship or not agreeing with a judgment call. EVEN when I 100% agreed with the feeling of the student, because that student was disrespectful.

Kids are told to do their best and often encouraged by the judge to relax, focus, etc and help them out in the ring during each match.
I have never seen a judge purposely put a child in harms way in a tourney (easily that equates to thousands of matches)

Yes their are parents and Sensei's that make a big deal out of their child loosing (mostly parents) they argue and fight with everyone do to their child lost (99% of the time well deserving lost I may add) bicker and make a big deal out of nothing other than one won and the other lost....

As a judge for 30 years I have been part of a comity to ban a dojo do to the teachers and or parents poor ethics and actions at a tourney.
I would like to see anyone say that in any other sport!!!

In fact Karate is one of the only sports I know that will disqualify a competitor do to comments and other poor actions from the parents or teacher.

So if I seem harsh to you well I have good reason.

Yes your thoughts on child safety is admiral one, though you don't address it you make vague comments towards it.


You slam Karate and boxing yet leave out all the team sports that win at any cost is the motto, Why????

If you are mixing or looking at Knock Down Kyokushin to other types of fighting and grouping us in with them then you need to re-think it. K/D is not full contact nor is it MMA nor is it grappling and ground fighting or any other type of fighting other than a bit more challenging than WKA etc point fighting.

True kyokushin fighting is NOT full contact, no face punching. We are not mindless, ruthless animals looking to put anyone in the ring to see them beat the crap out of each other.
No we are Kyokushin, Nothing more nothing less, and don't mix us up with others that are offshoots, or those who "trained" in Kyokushin (for a few yeaars) but fight in other types of ways/rules.

Yes from Kyokushin came K-1 and other styles or ways to fight or rules used to fight, But they are not Kyokushin!!!

So please take a good hard look and re-think who it is you are trying to or wish to make comments to.

Also provide us with info asked so we can help you, educate/inform you, or support you.

[Shokei Marcsui]

Someone has to say it...

"Wall-o-text"

Dear 'Spirit'

I thank you for your post, I admit it was not what I expected.

After reading your comments about me 'blowing smoke up everyones asses' and that you would add more but it was 'too graphic', I really wondered what you were going to do.

It appeared that you were hinting that you knew something about me that was too graphic to post. An implied threat to 'tell all'.

I admit that I was somewhat reluctant to access the forum , in case I had been accused of some heinous offence or some other evil that would damn me for ever in the eyes of humanity. Unfortunately no matter how false or malicious allegations may be, mud sticks.

Instead of a personal attack I find a well considered, inciteful, and totally reasonable post, that attacks my perceptions of what happens in kyakushin karate, but does not denigrate me as a person. For this I thank you.

I hope this means that I no longer have to remove myself from the forum, as I would have had to do if my views were going to provoke personal animosity. I am too old and tired to want conflict any more. But I will not shirk it if I have no alternative. In this forum I accept my position as the newcomer, And I appreciate the patience and forbearance shown to me, in spite of my views.

I do not find your comments 'harsh'. You have strong beliefs and quite rightly defend them when they are challenged. You have expressed your views openly and forthrightly whilst not denigrating me as a person. What is there harsh in that.

I must say that I did misread your intent ( see above) and in my reply to you I did make a comment about your lack of goodwill. I now realise that this comment was not justified, and I apologise for making it.

I will copy your post as I have done all the others, as I take them home to read carefully. I do not have internet at home , I use a commercial internet site, which I can only get to sometimes, and for limited periods of time. So it is difficult to give the issues raised by posters the time and thought they deserve whilst I am at the site and the clock is ticking. So please bear with me if I take time to reply.

If I may take the liberty of using this reply to ask if anyone out there has knowledge of any *junior semi/ full contact Sydney NSW area over the next few months I would appreciate any information. Thanks.

Again,'Spirit' Thank you for your post. You have raised many issues and some really deep points, such as the differing life experiences of the 12 year olds. I never looked at it from that perspective.

[Spirit]

voortigen


I think you need to understand that many "people" come on a forum an state their feeling about issues they really have, no knowledge or Full knowledge on. I perceived you as such a person, since many open ended question was asked with (as I read it) blaming uncalled for acts on children and safety issues in tourney's

I am a person who looks at this forum as talking in the dojo, though others may see this view as not so that's my view.
This forum is dedicated to Kyokushin and it offshoots and is mainly used by those who train or had trained. Often we get lonely people who live their lives through contact on many forums and will post things that cause the feathers to be ruffled, as well they will sit (once posted their comments) and watch the post fly both pro and con about their post.
Taking 3 days to repost (which is usually very uncommon specially after starting a thread) your reply seemed a bit much. So possible I may have attacked you a tad harsh...

Knowing that their is not a evil attack against children (but a strong discipline and structured one) in Kyokushin or Karate, Judo etc, I felt that I had to draw you out more to see what you really where getting at.

Your views (though not pointing a finger) basically focused on how I like/believe to teach (bamboo stick in hand, disciplined, structured, mouth shut, eyes and ears open, and strong sparring without ego or victor in mind and much knowledge of why, what for, how, when to, what other way to do etc) pushing and challenging everyone in the class (no matter age) to their breaking point and then driving them past it, may seem harsh to you. But until you experience the euphoria of that rush and energy one can't imagine nor can many explain it.
Hard training and what may be seen as cruel is also very prevalent in Tibetan Buddhist training that starts at a very young age.

Though my first Sensei and I are divide do to different ideologies, I still thank him for the relentless kihon classes and the foundation that was forged by this type of training.
He wielded that bamboo stick as if it was a paper bat, i can't tell you the amount of times I was struck by it (leaving large welts) yet as I look back on those early days I would never had change a thing.

As a Senpai and young Sensei I was often disliked by the student body do to the way I ran my class. Though many of the past students would seek me out years latter to thank me for driving them to hell and back and never letting them give up on themselves.
Many have told me it was this foundation that got them through college, and other difficult times in their lives and still help them in their family and work lives.
This is why a persons teaches, not for the money, the trophies the students win, pats on the back for being the nice guy. But for being true to the way and sacrificing friendships and students liking you even isolating yourself for future strengths that one is building in the students that loathe you today!!!

As for sparring, well all I can say is this....
If one does spar without contact (excluding the safety gear) then one has never sparred at all. Children fight all the time in the yard etc, wrestling around or over toys games etc...
We set up a rule based environment, with safety in mind and allow them to take the step into reality with injuries (or major ones)

One must know what a punch fells like before one can deliver one.
And I can say this as well, once I did join Karate, the nurse in the emergency room at the local hospital no longer seen me on the weekly or bi-weekly basis do to injuries sustained playing in the yard etc. I would say that even if you looked at any type of training as cruel and abusive, it could never compare to what I did (and my friend as well) to myself/themselves as a active child/children playing in the yard.

I'm glad that what I posted (the last one) has been seen at its full value, my statement of the graphic type was of a language thing (been warned about me tongue).

Look if you see Karate as cruel thats OK because you have the right to see it that way, just as I see Pro sports as a big waist of time and boring and the $$$ they get paid is just foolish and wrong. So how do I handle this issue I don't watch sports, I don't buy anything that is marketed by sports players and I don't talk sports to my friends unless they are open to hear me rant about it. (and some do, good friends)

But I would not go on to a sports forum and through it out their for all to read...
Not saying that your post was incorrect, just seemed a bit much for someone with no to limited train...

Now that this is all out and in the open, Welcome to the forum!!!

Originally Posted by seienchin

Well Voortigen - to make one thing very clear - I'm not about to ban anyone for asking reasonable and well thought out questions, and I think I can say that for the rest of the mods too. and if I still had my dojo, you'd be very welcome there.

Originally Posted by seienchin

Dear Seienchin - Thankyou.

I think it is a given that all peoples, of all races, persuasions, and sports, love their children. However, some terrible acts of child abuse are committed in the name of sport, as parents chase excellence and fame for their little ones. This is not something that is confined to one sport/undertaking such as karate, but is spread across many. For example, there was recently a big inquiry in Australia into the treatment of juvenile gymnasts by a coach in our national program. Swimming programs can require children to train for 4 hours a day. Football can encourage thuggery and violence. At the end of the day, much of this comes down to the parents and coaches.

I fully agree that some sports promote blatant thuggery, the use of dangerous tackles by league 'sportsmen' must set a wonderful example to the kids who watch them. I don't single out karate as being the only 'sport' that risks serious injury to children. I see some posts on the forum that seem to liken it to 'war', bluntly no one needs to have that 'garbage' put in a kids mind.

In the karate context, it is always about choosing the right dojo, and the right instructor. You will find bullies and thugs in all martial arts, kyokushin included. But you will also find them in every other sport.

I accept that , however there must be laws that determine whether some people are suitable candidates for any activity that involves training or influencing kids. I understand in the UK martial arts instructors must undertake a course on child psychology and physiology to ensure that kids are not subject to risk from people who think they are mini adults and do not understand (or dont want to) that kids bodies and minds are still growing they are immature physically and mentally.

][[/i]II suspect your real concern is not about the physical risk, but about the risk to the developing psyche of exposure to a culture where violence is normalised.

Right on the button !!!. I have two nephews who are interested in martial arts , like all kids they are little shits at times but essentially good kids. I am asking the questions because I will not put them into an activity where anyone thinks they are good to be used as punching bags. I also WILL NOT put them into an activity where they are taught to treat any other kids as punching bags. To me they must have the right to say NO, if they believe that what they are doing to someone is wrong. That includes inflicting unnecessary pain or injury on another kid because thats what they are told to do by an instructor or a referee is not doing his job and does not stop a contest when a kid is going to get hurt for no reason.

If they refuse to do something to an opponent because they honestly believe it to be wrong, and they don't want to do more damage then I expect the instructor, referee, judge, whoever to accept and honour that decision. If they were punished ( and I am aware of at least one dojo in Victoria where kids are physically punished and humiliated for not being aggressive enough to opponents) Then I am afraid the perpetrator would be dealing with one mean and angry old bastard. !!

A good instructor, who teaches the kyokushin way, can instil in students an understanding that violence is an attitude of the heart, perhaps even more than it is an action of the body.

yes as I said above, quite right, but is there any instructor out there who has made it a part of the training to actually tell students ( especially kids) that they have the right to stop , the right to say no, I doubt it. Is it not true that they are told by instructors, refs, , judges, stop when we tell you, not before, no matter how much you don't want to continue hurting another humsn being.

What is taught in the dojo must be as moral, as what is taught outside.



Something that I haven't understood from your post is why you are seeking so hard to undertand us.

I seek to understand those who I may come in contact with, either personally as a 'one foot in the grave' potential student. Or when it affects those dear to me who in turn may come in to contact as potential child students.

Your forum states that kyokishin is the strongest form of karate. Thus I perceive it to be the form with the greatest potential for learning martial arts but it also has greatest potential for injury. For is not the purpose to punch and kick an opponent to ground, and are not heavy kicks to the skull, and concussion caused by such blows a significant part of the 'art', even with kids.

Sorry I got a bit carried away with this, Apologies all round !

Regards Voortigen

Dear Spirit.

I have replied to a couple of your posts before, respecific issues about me. Now I will try and answer your questions more fully. As you will see from my reply to Seienchin I have said about my reasons for posting the original thread.

Yes it may be a form of confession, not about bashing kids, but other terrible things I have done when I thought violence was the way to deal with problems.

The comment about the anti spanking law intererested me. I believe quite simply that the use of violence teaches kids nothing , except that violence is OK to use on others. So I do not support any form of corporal punishment. Nor humiliation verbal or otherwise.(Reports of some bastard in Germany tying his son to a tree with a sign saying he was a thief round his neck.). Maybe not violent but just as sickening and cruel.

Having said that I understand that some people may see reasonable physical punishment as an option.
What is reasonable??
No hitting with closed fist or weapon ( belt stick etc) - that is blatant child abuse
No hitting head or shaking - that is blatant child abuse
No hitting anywhere other than on the backside. Anywhere else could lead to injury.
No hitting other than with open hand ( slap)
No hitting other than to cause momentary pain ( sting). No bruising or injury.
No hitting in anger, you might not be able to stop causing real harm.
Only do it to prevent the kid doing something that may harm him/her.
If you must do it, let the kid know that he/she is loved and the violence is not a sign of worse to come.

As I have said before I do not single out karate as the fount of all evil, far from it. There are many other sports where kids are abused, I look at this one because it is one (among other martial arts forms) that I wish to look at in terms of learning and practising , and I have two young relatives with similar interests and I have replied,, as you will see above to Seienchin more fully about what I look for with them.

I don't think kyokushin are narrow minded or violent as such, If I did I woudn't waste time on this forum. You wouldn't read or reply so what would be the point. It is the very fact that you are reasonable people that prompts me to ask the questions I do. I do not have fixed opinions , I have firm beliefs but I am more than willing to learn and accept when I am wrong. In the old days I would enjoy talking to my political enemies over a beer ( after agreeing a truce) Very stimulating and it is possible to learn so much from opponents, may be even agree with them a little ( though never admit it).
I don't see this forum as a chat room to pass the time of day. The few people who know me well enough to be aware of what happened in my life know that I believe deeply in what I say and the issues are ones that I care about.
As far as being blackballed being a bit 'dramatic'. Not so, a senior person from another martial arts discipline has threatened to set me up for a bashing. He does not believe that dissenting opinions should be heard when it comes to issues such as I have raised with your forum. I was looking at joining that form of activity, however the threat is real and could involve my family. The gentleman and I will have a meeting, but on my terms. I am not a fool and I am well aware that any martial arts practitioner could cause me serious injury without raising a sweat. I wish to make peace with him if I can. If not, so be it, at least I tried.

On the other hand a senior person from the kyokushin (I believe) karate community in the UK has treated me with respect and spent a lot of time dealing with some matters I raised about his style of karate. In fact it was this chance communication that led to my interest in taking up martial arts again after my abysmal attempt at karate in the past. However it is not viable to attend a dojo in the uk, or at least not for the next 15 months until I return.

Again, sorry it is long winded, but if people take the time to post to me , They deserve to be replied to fully. I take your point about me not replying for three day after my initial thread. I am trying to reply to everyone over the next few days.

Dear Olrac

Thank you for your reply, it is heartening to hear of the protection offered to youngsters
in the Netherlands, and that judges / referees put the safety of the competitors above pressure to win.

I still have reservations about kyokushin methods ( kicks to the head etc involving kids )to gain an knockdown or knockout. But the belief that the kids should be protected from serious harm is evident from your reply.

Again thankyou for your reply, and I am grateful that in your Country protection of kids in karate is taken seriously, because it certainly is not in others.

Regards Voortigen