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[Spirit]

Think about this question...

How many of you would train in a dojo where you can't talk, you can't socialize with other (within the dojo area) students, nothing but come in train (hard or soft whatever) then go home.

You come train, get disciplined by the teacher, clean the floor and leave.
Nothing else!!!

Nothing else, no talking, no smiling, no hand shakes, no questions, nothing but training. The only talking is the Sensei and or Senpai.
No awards, you are handed your belt after testing with a bow that's it...

****I mean cold straight forward training!!!!!!!!

Training with mouth shut and eyes and ears open ONLY!!!

[supergroup7]

Not allowed to question, or ask Sensei/ Sempai for help? I would not train in that environment.

I can handle the "no talking/ socializing" part, but there are many moments when I need to confirm that what I think I'm doing is what I'm supposed to be doing. I personally need to "touch base" even for just a second, and say "Sensei? like this?" before I spend 5 years perfecting a technique to find out that I've been doing it wrong all of that time because I misunderstood the application.

[Paedde]

I think you need the right balance. When sensei is teaching, you just do it and don't talk.

But I think it's also very important that you are able to ask something when you don't understand, or have questions you got from reading K4L or from somewhere else.

I also do like that we are something like a family in our dojo. When we train, we train for ourself, when we spar we are opponents, after training we are friends. I wouldn't want to miss that.

I also do like to talk after/before training with sensei, I always learn a lot from those conversations and he really helped me to make progress with the things he told me apart from the regular training.

But I also do like your approach, but when you do it too strict it is just fanatic. When you got the balance, you have a perfect training session in my eyes.

Looking forward to more answers, you brought up a really good topic Spirit-san

Osu

[Martin H]

I would not do it.

Im not training for any grander purpose than my own enjoyment, and that dont seem like much fun to me. To me the social bit is important. It is not strictly necessary for training, but it sure helps with motivation.
Also, not being able to ask questions? never? That dont seem to be a good way to learn anything.

I would look for another school very quickly.

[Shokei Marcsui]

To everything there is a season,
a time for every purpose under the sun.
A time to be born and a time to die;
a time to plant and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
a time to kill and a time to heal ...

There is a time to just shut up and train and other times to socialize and experience growing camaraderies with fellow karateka.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by Spirit

can't talk, you can't socialize with other students, nothing but come in train (hard or soft whatever) then go home.

You come train, get disciplined by the teacher, clean the floor and leave.

No nothing else, no talking, no smiling, no hand shakes, no questions, nothing but training. The only talking is the Sensei and or Senpai.

I must say I would be quite interested in training in such an environment, not because I think it would be good, but becaue I think it would be a really interesting anthropological experiment. I think in this environment, the students would very quickly find ways of acheiving that very thing that we all crave - connection with other members of the clan.

I can just imagine it now - two dojo members busted by the Sensei for "socialising" at a diner after class. And how can you completely stop people from smiling? Sometimes, stuff that happens in a dojo, serious or not, just makes you laugh. Part of learning is being prepared to look ridiculous, and laughter is a healthy way of dealing with that.

I also think it would be interesting to observe the personality types who would flourish in this environment. And it would be fascinating to observe the effect on the personalities of the instructors, whoh would be at very high risk of succumbing to the "cult leader" mentality. Unquestioning obedience from a group is not good for the human psyche, and I have seen many instructors who have developed a cult-like following. This environment risks increasing that.

the purpose of such would be??? I cannot think of a purpose that cannot be delivered by sound application of standard dojo discipline.

The one bit I really like the sound of is just being handed a belt. Can't stand the usual hoop-la personally!

[smoothsake]

First and foremost training is what I am in a dojo for, but personally what Spirit describes sounds more like a karate prison camp. I am who I am, and I like social interaction. I have made some great connections with those in my dojo and so much of my understanding of Kyokushin, karate, and martial arts comes from those out-of-dojo interactions and "pre-Sosai ni rei" and "post-otegai ni rei" conversations.

[koji112091]

I'm very exicited. for this summer I will be able to enter either a TKD dojo or a boxing gym.
However, in my current status of no dojo any training would be great. So I said I would love it

[Brad]

no way i thought to learn you have to ask. But in that case i get peed off when kids joke around to much.

[helenosch]

I'd say I would have to give it a try, just for getting a feel, but knowing me I wouldn't like it.
Our dojo is the direct opposite of the question: it can be loud sometimes and yes, we do talk a lot and joke around, but we still have a very good training discipline so why change something that works?

[Spirit]

I have made a correction in the part about no socializing... to, in the dojo area...
Out side is OK.
My mistake for not making that point first.

Now let us re think this with that in mind......

[Spirit]

Me I like a quite dojo (as in no talking or questions) and better yet a quite class (other than the kiai's).

I look at it this way, if a student needs to ask question on how to do this, and that, am I doing this right etc. Then I as a teach have failed the class!!! The teacher should be providing all the answer before they can be asked and the senpai's should be correcting the problems before they are a problem or a question.
But that is how I see it and been brought up to teach.We all have differnt ways and if the work for you then great...

Just to stroll back a bit in time,
I can remember back in the day, when we got people who asked a lot of question in the dojo (sensei would snap at them for talking since most of the time in class you was in Yoi and talking in yoi is not allowed) they really got it good during sparring for waisting time in class.

As for talking, Sensei would hand out push up like candy for talking in in way shape or form. Often before class even started mostof us had already done 200 or more push up, and he would crack you with the bamboo stick the second time you were caught talking, then push ups, then used as his punching bag during class to show you how a techniques worked.

Ah good times, dam those lawyers for ruining the good times!!!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Me I like a quite dojo (as in no talking or questions) and better yet a quite class (other than the kiai's).

I look at it this way, if a student needs to ask question on how to do this, and that, am I doing this right etc. Then I as a teach have failed the class!!! The teacher should be providing all the answer before they can be asked and the senpai's should be correcting the problems before they are a problem or a question.
But that is how I see it and been brought up to teach.We all have differnt ways and if the work for you then great...

Just to stroll back a bit in time,
I can remember back in the day, when we got people who asked a lot of question in the dojo (sensei would snap at them for talking since most of the time in class you was in Yoi and talking in yoi is not allowed) they really got it good during sparring for waisting time in class.

As for talking, Sensei would hand out push up like candy for talking in in way shape or form. Often before class even started mostof us had already done 200 or more push up, and he would crack you with the bamboo stick the second time you were caught talking, then push ups, then used as his punching bag during class to show you how a techniques worked.

Ah good times, dam those lawyers for ruining the good times!!!

What you describe above is how I like to train - as students we are all taking a journey together and there is camaraderie but not during the lesson, - scratch that I just remembered that in those days gone past I used to (occasionally) say stuff or do stuff to make the class laugh and I'd get punished but it was a considered thing, I did it knowing I was going to get punished it was balanced and in some way increased the spirit of the class and confirmed us as students, here to learn and the Sensei as in charge. GOOD OLD DAYS! : D

Sometimes I have left the dojo frustrated that too much social and not enough karate has gone on and wasted my time and money.

[kanku]

yes and have done

[smoothsake]

So after reading other's posts maybe what Spirit describes is not so different from my dojo today. The dojo can be a little crazy before and after class, but once class starts only the sensei and senpai talks. There is no talking during class, and absolutely no goofing around. When there is a question it is usually something like, "do you want us to alternate left and right kicks?" It's not so much "why are we doing this?" Those questions, if even asked, are saved for after class.

As far as socializing goes, that's what I meant about pre- and post-rei being the time for that and that too is part of the dojo experience.

BTW, our belts are handed out in front of class with a bow and applause and that's it. No pomp and circumstance - but I haven't seen a black belt handed out yet so not sure if it's different there; I imagine it is.

My dojo is pretty strict, pretty traditional, and that's why I go there.

[supergroup7]

"I have made a correction in the part about no socializing... to, in the dojo area...
Out side is OK.
My mistake for not making that point first.

No let us re think this with that in mind......"

So then, we can ask questions before or after class? O.K.. then.. that's fine. I'm o.k. with no talking during class. It is in the doing of the motion that one learns the most, and gains the skills, you can talk about it forever, but never be able to "do" it.

I feel that the questions that I have are not an indication of how good, or bad my instructor is teaching, it is more a effect of my growth in understanding. Instead of parroting what I see others doing, I start to question my movements, sensations, and knowledge to the point where I turn to someone with more experience, and ask "Is this what I think it is?" Then I can receive individual confirmation, or further guidance in the specific direction that I need. Class teaching tends to be of a generic nature which encompasses the whole group. There are moments when I need some little additional boost of information outside of the group experience to help me cement my own expression of karate.

[koji112091]

No talking in class is good idea. At least if you mean socializing with other students. Questions are needed. I can not think of anything I learned that I have not asked questions about.

[Spirit]

No questions before, after, during class.
If the teacher wishes you to do it this way or that they would state it if you missed then you would be corrected.

I take it, by the way most of you post about asking questions that one does not know the rank rule
No one can ask up...
meaning as a 9th kyu you can't ask a 8th kyu to warm up with you or show you kata, spar etc, a Nidan can't ask a Sandan for help etc. no asking up, help is past down as seen needed.

Karate is a one way street, you learn at the pace the teacher feels you should learn, not at the pace you think you should learn.

I would address a student who feels the need to always ask question to reevaluate their thoughts about continuing in the class after (6 months or year of constant asking).
I would sit down with said student and discuss the facts with them and ask them to think about their future in Karate.
This is often brought on by the faces and body language of the other students when this said student asks their questions.
This is observed as disruptive to the whole class/dojo and effects everyone else in the dojo, 1 student should not effect all others.

If one feels the constant need to always ask, I would ask the student to research themselves what it is they feel is wrong, work in the mirror for the next month and see what they are doing wrong and right based on the info given in the class.

[tansei]

For the most part, we operate in the disciplined manner. That is, no talking in class, questions are not encouraged during class, however the student will not get "punished" if they do. If a question is asked, it is extremely brief. The few minutes students arrive before class is used to warm-up, not socialize. So we remind them on several occasions if the volume of conversation increases.

If you think about it, we are teaching discipline, and we force students to concentrate and being able to observe and learn on your own, and not always depend on your sensei to repeat the instruction. There are times that the sensei or sempai was not clear, and this is why i wouldn't punish a student to motion that they don't understand. But a good instructor would see the confusion in the students' faces and repeat the instruction.

How about other disciplinary actions like not drinking during class. Again the reason here is that the flow of the class should be uninterrupted. Imagine the whole class stops to drink. We were never aloud to bring a water bottle in class. However, i try to think outside the box sometimes and in our summer classes in a room without windows or air-conditioning, i allowed for water bottles. However I told them when they could go drink and it was for exactly 30seconds. Some forgot their water bottle, and this was a consequence they paid.

How about not showing emotion during class. As Shokei Marcsui says, there is a time for everything. I stress on the fact that in kumite it is dangerous to laugh. When you laugh, you show that you are not concentrating, and if you are not concentrating you can get seriously hurt. You are here to train and to train hard. You can still get pleasure and satisfaction from it without smiling.

So in general, I would agree with Spirit and run a karate class like this. However what are the disciplinary actions a sensei takes if a student does not follow the rules? Do we say "punish", or "time to think", or "physical reminders"?

[supergroup7]

Ah.. thank you for the clarification as to how you would handle a question asking student, Spirit. It is obvious to me that you and I would not be good soul mates in the dojo. Again, you and I are on the opposite sides of the Teeter Totter.

I encourage questions when I teach, but I ask them to be said at an appropriate time. I provide moments when I will ask "Are there any questions? No.. well if you come up with one, feel free to speak with me later." I make myself available before, and after class for any questions even repetitive ones, because not every student learns as quickly as others. I respect the need for different methods of teaching. Some students learn through sight, others through sound, and others through movement. By taking away "sound" from the teaching equation, one is effectively shutting out 1/3 of learning potential.

I will give moments during training when I will ask my students questions forcing them to become "thinking" martial artists. I desire my students to explore, expand, create, take apart, and create using the scaffolding that I have provided. I appreciate the challenge that these questions provide to me to find another direction in my own study of karate. Sometimes the question that is placed before me by a beginner does not have a quick, and easy answer, and I find myself needing to explore that part of my art more deeply, and growing in my own path. By manipulating the information themselves in their mind, it cements the knowledge.

I involve as many aspects as I can when I teach. I challenge them mentally, physically, and spiritually as they walk on their own Path. This includes "speaking" out what they think that they know in their minds, seeking confirmation as to it's validity, and reaching farther for inspiration. I have seen young 10 year olds come up with wonderful insightful, and deep explanations of various karate techniques through this activity. It awakens their interest, and curiousity. They start to yearn for more knowledge, and hunger for improvement. You can see the sparkle of excitement in their eyes as they start to get those "aha" moments... and then MORE questions arise as they explore this new found knowledge. As they stumble through the learning, I can see some things that I can use to improve their efforts. I would not trade those special moments in for a silent dojo.

Questions do affect the rest of the class, it affects it in a very positive way. It pops thoughts into their minds that may not have been there before, it offers an opportunity to expand on something, or it may repeat knowledge that will be learned even better through the action of repetition.

For me Karate is a path that can only be walked by ONE person... no one can learn for us, no one can do the work for us, we are responsible for our own skills. When we walk out of the dojo at the end of class, how well we understood the lesson, how much effort we put towards the training, and how much progress we achieved is ALL on our own shoulders.. not on our Sensei's and certainly not on our fellow dojo mates. One day we can find that our Sensei stops teaching, our dojo closes down, but that will not stop us from continuing learning, advancing, and excelling in our Martial Way.

I would be VERY concerned about a person who has no need to ask questions, and I would pull that person aside to ask them to reconsider their path in Karate as they are showing no personal initiative in their learning.

It's amazing that training in Karate is an individual action that has such a big impact on the community. Each Martial artist has the opportunity to delve into improving themselves within, and without. It isn't just knowing the best way to break an arm, or to unbalance an opponent that will help us as we walk through the challenges of life. It is by being able to ask ourselves the right questions, and to learn to find our own answers, and to learn to trust with confidence that we have the ability to meet each challenge, and find victory.

I personally train as I teach, and therefore it is a good thing that I have found so many dojo that I can train at, and many Sensei that share the same philosophy.

It is also a good thing that there are a variety of Instructors, and styles of teaching available to meet the needs of each and every individual who choses to train in the Martial Way.