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Old 01-13-2008, 12:19 AM   #1
guty
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rise & fall of kyokushin

check this website index
and has and article call rise & fall of kyokushin.... what do you think of it,well still a good reading all of it.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:23 AM   #2
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Yes it was a good read from a different perspective, maybe not entirely accurate and with a bit of bias but hey everyone is guilty of it... I especially like the closing analysis of Kyokushin in comparison to Kung Fu and Sanda. Perhaps Kyokushin is no longer truely "The Strongest Karate" anymore but no one can doubt the impact of Mas Oyama on all of us. (I personally would be fighting non-contact thinking I could handle myself in a real fight, sure...)

"In last year's K1 Survival (06/02/2002), when Pettas fought Sergei Guru, he met with a freak accident in the 2nd round of the bout. He threw a low kick at Sergei, which he blocked, and Pettas ended up breaking his own leg in the process. He fell immdeiately with a cry and could no longer get up. Nobody had expected such thing to happen, but since it did, a broken leg effectively ended the fightng career of the promising Pettas."

Well we all know THAT isn't true with his recent win.

Kancho Jon Bluming's articles on Kyokushin are also worth reading even if you don't agree with what he is saying. Always good to look at things from a different perspective.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:38 AM   #3
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all i can say is WOW?!

Confused and still amazed, but like every MA it has its ups and downs, Kung Fu had/has its up and downs and yet people still do participate in it, like Kyokushin or any other karate style it suffers its downs but always makes a comeback, either Sosai Oyama wanted this to happen or it was beyond his control from the different groups forming. Either way no one can truly know.

P.S i like the reading ^^, and the amazing things Sosai Oyama did, do you have any more websites of his trainings and travelings world wide challenging fighters?

Osu
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Old 01-13-2008, 07:46 PM   #4
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indeed i like everythig i read ,not just the kyokushin part,theres a lot of information in that page on M.A its a good reading all of it, i will check on more info about Mas Oyama, i think the part that stops me for longer time was when he says : "In the 80s, Kyokushin started to close its doors to challengers, and it no longer sent fighters out there to challenge other styles. The later generation Karateka seemed content to rest easy on the fruits of the success & dominion left by their brave predecessors. Kyokushin turned inward, focusing only on its own tournaments and its own rules, so much so the whole style started to revolve around the tournament system of fighting" its not that i think is true it just stops me a bit on the reading...what do you guys with real xperience think about it ..does the focus on internal tournaments with internal rules had make the style less efective???..
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:47 PM   #5
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Totally agree with JCbel and others give good comments as well. I believe that like life our paths are never linear which goes for karate associations as well, there are always going to be ups and downs with lessons to be learnt on the way. Every Martial Art regardless of style and our beliefs has something to offer; Kyokushin it may be said is younger than some styles and be going through a bad patch however look around, see how many other styles have come about because of its doctrine and how many of the Kanchos and Senseis of these groups still remain a Kyokushin Karateka at heart. Kyokushin will be here for a long time, I believe has been and will continue to integral element of the worldwide spread of karate. I myself do not practice pure Kyokushin but would not still be training without the determination and spirit instilled in me during the early years

Osu
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Old 01-14-2008, 11:37 AM   #6
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I think that any budo shoud be viewed with respect to the cultivation of the character. When a fighter from one style beats a fighter from another style, it doesn't prove much to me. Everybody gets their ass kicked at some point, if they continue to fight.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:52 PM   #7
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A lot of good things are written in the article, I especially liked the following patterns comment. However, in analyzing any style for which ever reason, one must think about the use of said martial art, I think that the author should have put emphasis on his idea of the criteria for the best Martial art, or best striking art.
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Old 01-17-2008, 07:03 AM   #8
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The author does some nice research on the history of Kyokushin, but the premise of the article, that Kyokushin has declined and is a cautionary tale for Kung Fu is utter bull***t. Unlike Kung Fu, Kyokushin has been evolving even when Sosai was still alive. The tournament system is the reason for that. It's no surprise that Kyokushin continues to evolve.

While it's true face punching and grappling do not figure centrally, or even peripherally in our training, I point out that these are merely skill sets for a different "game." The purpose of Kyokushin is not to excell in "games," even though tournament participation is a common feature. The main purpose, as I see it, is nurturing a fighting spirit.

Now, I don't know if Kung Fu has a dojo kun. If it's aim is to excell in ring sports, it is way behind. If it's purpose is self defense, it is centuries behind because a taser in a woman's handbag is better able to protect you than 10 years of practicing White Crane whatever.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:08 PM   #9
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why should face punching and grappling be skill sets for a different "game", as opposed to necessities for combat. if the early kyokushin fighters set out to show the world that they practiced the strongest karate, going out and challenging other styles to test their karate and modifying. that is one of the reasons for so many offshoots.
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Old 01-17-2008, 03:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA View Post
why should face punching and grappling be skill sets for a different "game", as opposed to necessities for combat. if the early kyokushin fighters set out to show the world that they practiced the strongest karate, going out and challenging other styles to test their karate and modifying. that is one of the reasons for so many offshoots.
Define the "combat" you're talking about. If you're talking about tournament play, it's like complaining that soccer is inferior to rugby because players can't carry the ball upfield. If by combat, you mean street fighting or war-zone combat, dojo training time would better be spent running on a track or shooting on the firearms range. If you must have face punching and grappling, Daido Juku Kudo is something for you, although if you think this will be better preparation for combat, I must ask you again, what kind of combat?
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Old 01-17-2008, 03:34 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by meguro View Post
Define the "combat" you're talking about. If you're talking about tournament play, it's like complaining that soccer is inferior to rugby because players can't carry the ball upfield. If by combat, you mean street fighting or war-zone combat, dojo training time would better be spent running on a track or shooting on the firearms range. If you must have face punching and grappling, Daido Juku Kudo is something for you, although if you think this will be better preparation for combat, I must ask you again, what kind of combat?
Just my own definition: the combat could be a battle between two different martial artists, like the fights sosai did.

For myself I would like to participate in Kyokushin tournaments, but also spread Kyokushin around by participating in Kickboxing/MMA, will take some more years until I'm able to compete but I think Kyokushin is more than Kyokushin tournament fighting. But it's just the opinion of a beginner
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:10 PM   #12
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when i say combat, i mean full contact fighting (outside of knockdown), from sport to real life self defense. the reason the karateka goes out to fight other styles is because they want to test their styles effectiveness. we can say that they are doing a sporting event, but those differences in the fighting sport show the strength and weaknesses of a style. it would seem that many dojos focus on only what they do well. it is a well known fact that many dojos don't practice face punching, throwing, grappling, etc. the early pioneer fighters of kyokushin who would go out and fight against other styles wanted to improve their fighting ability. having been a fighting martial artist, i fought under different rules (karate, tkd, knockdown, shidokan, thai boxing, boxing, judo,
etc.) because as a martial artist trying to become well rounded i need to test what i knew or thought i knew. in any real fight (meaning sport or reality) outside of bare knuckle fighting, you have to know how to grapple or punch to head (or both). i like to use this to demonstrate one of my case studies. i promote fights of all kinds (like that shown in the highlight clip), and i train full contact fighters.

YouTube - Shidokan Atlanta - Richard Trammell Highlights
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Old 01-17-2008, 06:39 PM   #13
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Everything through the course of time has periods when it levels out. It will then take off again...this is the learning period!!!
An Example that Kyokushin is starting to move on and take on the other styles, as once before in old days past is the 'Ichigeki' IKO1 Kancho Matsui.
As everyone here knows...with the likes of Shihan Filho and Sensei Feitsoa, Kyokushin is moving in the right direction. You dont just enter K-1 and win matches if our training was not progressing! All be it slowly, but we are all at the beginning of something special in our Wonderful Style. The Ichigeki is not just about fighting stand-up K-1 either. It also includes MMA/Grappling.
Time will show, that other Organisations within the Kyokushin Brotherhood will also adopt this method of thinking/training....and will see more all rounded training being introduced around the Dojos.
If we can produce the likes of Filho and Feitosa in its 'Early Years', then surely as time goes on and fighters are exposed to this evolving way of Kyokushin...we will regain our reputation and stance as Karate's 'Strongest Karate'!!!
Many thanks
OSU!!!
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Old 01-17-2008, 07:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meguro View Post
Define the "combat" you're talking about. If you're talking about tournament play, it's like complaining that soccer is inferior to rugby because players can't carry the ball upfield. If by combat, you mean street fighting or war-zone combat, dojo training time would better be spent running on a track or shooting on the firearms range. If you must have face punching and grappling, Daido Juku Kudo is something for you, although if you think this will be better preparation for combat, I must ask you again, what kind of combat?

Meguro we're talking about hand to hand combat obvioulsy. What else could it be? Of course, if i carry a gun i'll feel more safe in the streets. But that's not the question. The question is, in hand to hand situation is Kyokushin Karate enough as it's practiced in most dojo in nowadays? If so, how do you think you would handle yourself against an MMA expert in a street fight?

I know some Kyokushin intructors encourage their students to train Boxing/Kickboxing and Ju-jutsu skills as well because nowdays standard Kyokushin Karate training doesn't cover these essential aspects of fighting. Of course if you live in place where you have a low violence rate and never challenged a MMA or a Ju-jutsu fighter you'll never realize the importance of these techniques.

But on the other hand if you look at the Ishigeki project you can tell the big names in Kyokushin are aware of this lacune and are now trying to cover it.

Kansho Royama also admited this gap and he's now making effort to correct things by changing the training methods and creating new tournament rules.

This is was one of the reason why many Kyokushin fighters left the Kyokushin Kaikan. I'm not expecting for people like Kenji Kurosaki, Yoshiji Soeno, Takashi Azuma, Kenji Yamaki, Hajime Kazumi to return to IKO-1 because i even like the fact that there are now more than one full contact Karate style but it would be nice to see all the IKOs united (maybe working as independent factions so that they could have their own tournaments but at the same time, being allowed to join the IKO-1 WT and other tournaments like Ishigeki in K-1 and MMA rules).

I think this would force Kyokushin dojos to cover all aspects of fighting which is part of Bushido (being the best you can be) and as a consequece it would lead to much stronger and well rounded Kyokushin Karate followers. The spirit is already there, it's only an important part of the technique that's missing.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonik View Post
Meguro we're talking about hand to hand combat obvioulsy. What else could it be? Of course, if i carry a gun i'll feel more safe in the streets. But that's not the question. The question is, in hand to hand situation is Kyokushin Karate enough as it's practiced in most dojo in nowadays? . . .
Riiiight, the hand to hand combat all of us normally encounter- in a mixed martial arts ring. What you all seem tp be arguing for is that Kyokushin Karate should become Kyokushin Mixed Martial arts. Before I practiced Kyokushin, I practiced and competed in TKD, Judo, even Kendo. At no time do I recall anyone complaining that Judo would be much better if it had punches, or Kendo would be more popular if it allowed kicks, or the trouble with TKD is not enough grappling.

If Kyokushin Karateka want to cross-train and compete in outside tournaments, that's great. Provisions should be made for that. Perhaps Ichigeki is a step in that direction. I think it would be better to outsource the training to dedicated instructors of boxing, grappling, etc. For those that choose to go this roue, the Kyokushin kanku can be applied to their spandex for the televised ground and pound.
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Old 01-18-2008, 02:10 AM   #16
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meguro,

hand to hand in an mma bout is more suitable for hand to hand real fighting. the hands are base on boxing punches which are the most effective for any kind of combat, sport or real. judo and tkd are sports that specialize in certain things. any martial artist, regardless of style has to know techniques that will help them in a real situation. if we only practice tournament sparring (which most dojos and dojangs do), then students may be at disadvantage. they aren't learning how to deal with a punch to the face or a throw/grappling situation. put the martial artist who is well rounded in a bad situation and put the martial artist who only trains in one facet in the same situation. 9 out of 10 times the well rounded guy is going to do better. martial arts competition of any kind is great. and competitors should focus on developing the necessary skills to help them in the chosen combative sport. at the same time, as martial artist, we need to have curriculums in place that include all ranges of combat. we should stay open to new things and continually add to what we do, just like to early kyokushin pioneers mentioned in the article that started this thread.
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:14 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by meguro View Post
Riiiight, the hand to hand combat all of us normally encounter- in a mixed martial arts ring. What you all seem tp be arguing for is that Kyokushin Karate should become Kyokushin Mixed Martial arts. Before I practiced Kyokushin, I practiced and competed in TKD, Judo, even Kendo. At no time do I recall anyone complaining that Judo would be much better if it had punches, or Kendo would be more popular if it allowed kicks, or the trouble with TKD is not enough grappling.

If Kyokushin Karateka want to cross-train and compete in outside tournaments, that's great. Provisions should be made for that. Perhaps Ichigeki is a step in that direction. I think it would be better to outsource the training to dedicated instructors of boxing, grappling, etc. For those that choose to go this roue, the Kyokushin kanku can be applied to their spandex for the televised ground and pound.

Have you ever been to street fights? I have a lot in the past. And where i live even though you see more and more often guys carrying weapons there's still place for one on one fights.

And there isn't so much difference between the cage and the street if it's one on one. Of course if there are broken glasses on the ground, it's not so suitable to try newaza but you're evading my question. What will you do if a MMA expert tries to take you down? And if he does succeed do you think you have enough grappling skills to defend yourself from that point? What if it's a Muay Thai expert? Do you think you can handle his game? Is the average Kyokushin Karateka capable enough to handle such opponents with a good chance of winning?

Regarding your comment in which you compare Judo and Kyokushin Karate let me tell you this, Judo is regarded as an Olyimpic sport and not so much as a traditional martial art like Ju-jutsu. It's like Boxing. You already know it's a sport. A combat sport though. It has fighting technqiues that can be applied with great effectiveness in a street fight but it's imcomplete. People who pick Boxing, Kickboxing and Judo already have an idea of what they're going into from TV and because these are popular combat sports. they're also aware of it's lacunes (i mean poeple know Judo has no strikes and Boxing has no kicks)

Now in my perspective, i've never regarded Kyokushin Karate as a combat sport but as a martial art even though many people are training as such. Sure, the spiritual element is there but is that enough? You can have that in Zen classes or other hard fighting styles. Remember, Sosai wanted Kyokushin Karate to be the most effective Karate style/martial art on Earth. In the old days most students had a Judo background and there was inclusively a Kyokushin Kickboxing gym and Kyokushi nfighter competing in Kickboxing rules. The idea in those times was to combine the most effective fighting techniques in one single fighting style - Kyokushin Karate.

Unfortunately after the first WTs the Kyokushin Kaikan turned inwards as the author claims and focused it's training methods on competition rules. This is a fact. Nowadays you rarely see a Kyokushin instructor passing down Boxing, Kickboxing or Grappling exercises/sparring not to mention street defense knowledge.

Now i dont see what's your point of suggesting i'm too worried whether Kyokushin Karate is popular or not. Of course i prefer to know Kyokushin Karate is spreading worldwide just like other offshoot styles but the main worry for me is self defense. Competition comes after. But notice that Kyokushin Karate at this point is more famous worldwide because of K-1 fighters such as Francisco Filho, Andy Hug and Glaube Feitosa. These are the main icons of Kyokushin Karate but they needed Boxing and Kickboxing training to reach a top position in K-1.

Now imagine if they were into MMA. It would take them some more years to adapt well. Also notice that MMA is the closest thing you get to a real street fight in terms of combat sports. Of course you don't see eye gauging there nor ear bitting because obvious reasons but i don't think that would change much. Once you're taken down and mounted and if you have no grappling skills, you're pratically finished there. In case you're facing a Boxer or a Kickboxer in street fight it's gonna be hard to overcome such opponent if you're not used to their fighting styles and therefore i insist they should be part of the Kyokushin Karate curriculum like it's being done at the Ishigeki Plaza.

It's known that Kyokushin Karate like many other Karate styles has fatal strikes like eye gauging, strikes to the throat, groin kicks etc in its curriculum but these kind of techniques are not practiced too often, when they should (with proper equipment and methods of course).

Fact is most students will use only what they train mostly in their dojo. If they're training is mainly focused on competition rules then their response in a self defense situation might be very limited because of all the restrictions (like no punches ot the face, no clinch, no elbows, no takedowns, no submission etc..).

Hope i made my point there. Of course, if you insist on having a fighting system primarly focused on competition training then i don't expect you to change your opinion. If you see Kyokushin Karate almost the same way as Judo or Taekwondo then it's obvious we're on different paths here. I'm just expressing how i feel Kyokushin Karate should return to it's original ideology and i actually see this happening with the Ishigeki project, altough it's only in a very small scale for now and i want it to become larger. I want to see Ishigeki academies and tournaments all over the world. Hell, i would even pay to see a Kyokushin Karate temple/school where kids would learn everything (self defense, languages, philosophy, history sciences etc). That's the future i want. Maybe only a dream but still a valid one.



Osu!



Ps: Sorry for being too extensive here
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA View Post
meguro,

hand to hand in an mma bout is more suitable for hand to hand real fighting. the hands are base on boxing punches which are the most effective for any kind of combat, sport or real. judo and tkd are sports that specialize in certain things. any martial artist, regardless of style has to know techniques that will help them in a real situation. if we only practice tournament sparring (which most dojos and dojangs do), then students may be at disadvantage. they aren't learning how to deal with a punch to the face or a throw/grappling situation. put the martial artist who is well rounded in a bad situation and put the martial artist who only trains in one facet in the same situation. 9 out of 10 times the well rounded guy is going to do better. martial arts competition of any kind is great. and competitors should focus on developing the necessary skills to help them in the chosen combative sport. at the same time, as martial artist, we need to have curriculums in place that include all ranges of combat. we should stay open to new things and continually add to what we do, just like to early kyokushin pioneers mentioned in the article that started this thread.
Very well said. That's my point there.


Osu!
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:32 AM   #19
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It seems many wish to view violent real life encounters as an opportunity to duel. I believe that attitude will get you killed. A career crimnial who wishes to take your property and possibly your life, is not looking for a chance to prove his toughness. Do criminals have the money, leisure time or discipline for martial arts training? I doubt it. Most likely they will use stealth, larger numbers, and weapons to make their living. The fair fight and desired face-off exist only in testosterone fueled fantasy, or of course a ring. Show me someone who habitually gets into unarmed street fights and I'll show you someone with poor decision making skills or criminal tendencies. The additional training or refocus on training really has no purpose other than fighting someone else's game, namely MMA.

I am not denying MMA's popularity, nor the fact that competitors trained only in Kyokushin are at a disadvantage under mixed martial arts competition rules. So what? Kyokushin focusing solely on MMA would be like Italian car manufacturer, Ferrarri, scrapping its entire line-up to make 4x4's and drift cars because WRC and drifting are getting more air-time on ESPN.

Besides, how do you propose Kyokushin undertake this groundshifting change? How do you retrofit all the yudansha and kyu grades with boxing, grappling, clinching skills? Where would the thousands of new outside instructors come from? (It will take a generation or two before home-grown Kyokushin MMA instructors can be groomed.) A better strategy is for interested parties to undertake the cross-training on their own or at the Ichigeki Plaza.
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:18 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA View Post
meguro,

hand to hand in an mma bout is more suitable for hand to hand real fighting.
I don't train to fight. I train so I will have the strength of will to walk away from a fight. And if we all do that, including the MMA guys...then your scenario will never arise.
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