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[Kyokushin_Practioner]

i never looked at the Dojo Kuns and 11 mottos this way,but if you follow the kuns and the mottos down to a tee you could possibly become the greatest Martial Artist ever.

[supergroup7]

Wow.. so many wonderful answers! Thank you to all of you for contributing to this thread. I would like to collect the main ideas together so that I do not repeat them in my answer:

Seienchin showed us how we all start our training with learning how to make a fist ( point), and then evolving into circular fighting methods as yudansha. She mentions the "circle of life", and how we go from being beginner to advanced to returning to beginner again as we progress in Karate. She reflects how straight lines spin off of the center of the circle using the hara as a power source. She referred us to the Aikido's philosophy of "circle and point" which I will try to paraphrase as becoming one with the Universe which is based on circular movement. Or in other words, one "blends" with the power being directed at them, and deflects it in a circular manner.

Blackdog reminded us that a circle is never ending, and therefore so should our karate efforts.

Ksan exhorts us to look at our kata, especially Tensho, to see the "Point/circle" concept being revealed.

Therev quoted Sosai Oyama's books to show us just how important keeping the concept of circular movement is in our training.

Mcuz started looking at the physical aspect. He was noticing the rotation of the various body parts in effectively striking with power, and speed.

If I have missed anyone's contribution, please forgive me, and make me aware...

[supergroup7]

Now for my few thoughts to contribute.. These words are excerpts from an essay that I did on "Point and circle" for one of my Belt ranks requirements:

In Nara Japan, Sosai Masutatsu Oyama explained how he came upon the “Point and circle” concept during a public lecture on May 10, 1979. He mentions that in 1956, when he was around 33 years old, he met Sifu Ching in Hong Kong, and developed a deep respect for the skill, and knowledge of this Martial artist. Sosai says “ He asked me to show him my techniques, and I showed him all that I knew. He said that it was wonderful and dynamic, but still with an edge on it. He said I was like a rough diamond and I needed polishing. I asked him to teach me but he answered that he didn't really have anything to teach me, just that I had forgotten the definition of Karate and my movements had become too straight. He said, draw a circle and have a spot on it. A straight line is plus alpha. He said that straight Karate was just gymnastics, but you only beat people when you have power, true power that comes from the point and circle. Since that time I have been teaching all my students the same thing, and this is why Kyokushin Karate is different from other Karate styles. ” ........

How does this shape, and formation of a circle affect the understanding of movement of a karate ka studying Martial arts? It is because having an awareness of the circles that exists around, and within the karate practitioner helps perfect the movement, execution, and power of the various techniques.
........There are three circles of distance around the karate ka which is important in the concept of “Ma-ai” ( “Bridging the gap”). The karate ka himself becomes the center of the circle, and then we can look at the ranges of influence of techniques. There is close range (striking with knees/elbows), mid range (striking with fists/close kicks), and far range (long ranged kicks).
One can also consider a fourth option of Ma-ai which would be how far the karate ka can surge forwards with speed to bridge the gap between themselves, and their opponent to catch that person unawares. However, this type of circle of influence is very variable to the ability of each karate ka.

.....There is also a circle of directions for dodging, countering, and unbalancing called “Happo Kawashi” ( Directions for dodging/parrying), that surrounds the Karate ka. It has an infinite amount of directions of movement, but for the sake of simplifying we can use the directions of front, back, left, right. Happo Kawashi is the most direct form of revealing the concept of the “Point and circle” theory. This is where the karate ka leaves the realm of linear karate with it’s back and forth movement, and starts to explore the possibilities of angles, and circular movement.....

....Sosai Masutatsu Oyama mentions the importance of Happo Kawashi by saying “The life of Kyokushin Karate is Kumite(fighting). The life of Kumite, fighting, is in basics. You have to practice circle training. One should never show ones back to the enemy, you must try to get him from behind. If you are to the side of your opponent you can win 60% of the time, if in front perhaps 50%, but if you can get to the back of your opponent you can win 70-80% of the time. Students must train how to come in from behind.”

.....The circular movement must be balanced the same way a ball, or a top is balanced keeping one’s weight in the center throughout the movement. To lean one’s center of balance too far to the left, right, front or back will slow down rotation, and unbalance the performer. The center point needs to be solid to support the rotation of the rest of the body. Just as it is impossible to make a ball fall over, the karate ka needs to keep the constant circular movement to create the effect that the attack “spins” off into another direction through centrifugal force.....

....This same force can be seen in various karate techniques such as the Shuto Ganmen Uchi, the Mawashi Geri, etc. where the circular movement creates power. Speed is the key element to this type of circular movement. As with the small stone reaching high force through the speed of the rotation of the sling, the foot can also reach great power when send in a circular path with speed. Rotating around one’s center of gravity increases the amount of speed one can produce without having to move in any direction....

[supergroup7]

Sosai Masutatsu Oyama included circular movement as the main aspect of Kyokushin karate as he came to understand that this type of movement is most natural to the world around us. Water, Air, Earth, Fire, and Life ( Chi) all contains within it circular movements. Since Sosai Oyama studied Zen, he was very conscious of the power contained in the expression of a circle. In his experiences in karate training, circular movement in fighting was far superior to linear. Sosai Oyama had seen the Zen circle drawn more than once in Japanese culture, which is a very popular symbol expressing the totality of the universe in Japan, or the idea of supremacy.


"The Zen symbol "supreme" is an enso, a circle of enlightenment. The Shinjinmei, written in the sixth century, refers to the Great Way of Zen as "A circle like vast space, lacking nothing, and nothing in excess," and this statement is often used as an inscription on enso paintings. The earliest reference to a written enso, the first Zen painting, occurs in the Keitokudento-roku, composed in the eighth century:

A monk asked Master Isan for a gatha expressing enlightenment. Isan refused saying, "It is right in front of your face, why should I express it in brush and ink?"
The monk then asked Kyozan, another master, for something concrete. Kyozan drew a circle on a piece of paper, and said, "Thinking about this is and then understanding it is second best; not thinking about it and understanding it is third best." (He did not say what is first best.)

Thereafter Zen circles became a central theme of Zen art. Enso range in shape from perfectly symmetrical to completely lopsided and in brushstroke (sometimes two brushstrokes) from thin and delicate to thick and massive. Most paintings have an accompanying inscription that gives the viewer a "hint" regarding the ultimate meaning of a particular Zen circle. The primary types of enso are: (1) Mirror enso: a simple circle, free of an accompanying inscription, leaving everything to the insight of the viewer. (2) Universe enso: a circle that represents the cosmos (modern physics also postulates curved space). (3) Moon enso: the full moon, clear and bright, silently illuminating all beings without discrimination, symbolizes Buddhist enlightenment. (4) Zero enso: in addition to being curved, time and space are "empty," yet they give birth to the fullness of existence. (5) Wheel enso: everything is subject to change, all life revolves in circles. (6)Sweet cake enso: Zen circles are profound but they are not abstract, and when enlightenment and the acts of daily life-"sipping tea and eating rice cakes"-are one, there is true Buddhism. (7) "What is this?" enso: the most frequently used inscription on Zen circle paintings, this is a pithy way of saying, "Don't let others fill your head with theories about Zen; discover the meaning for yourself!""
Taken from Enzo: Zen circles of enlightenment

In 1964, Sosai Oyama designed a Kanku symbol to represent Kyokushin Karate and he drew it to include two circles. The inner circle represents Infinity, implying depth which is similar to the zen circle. The outer circle represents the continuity, and circular motion of Kyokushin Karate.This symbol is recognized internationally by all Kyokushin students as expressing Sosai’s focus on the “Point and circle”. One can see that the path in Martial arts always begins at a humble single point such as learning how to do a proper fist, and then travels on for continuity throughout history, and throughout an individual's life by constant effort, and training. One can also see the interior circle as representing our continual search to attain spiritual goals, and the outer circle symbolizing our physical goals as in “heaven and earth”. It is noticable that the two circles are not separate from each other but are strongly connected by the red inner symbol representing the opening move of the Kanku Kata. It is my thought that it is through our karate training that we are bridging heaven and earth, the spiritual, and the physical. There are many individual interpretations of the two circles in the Kanku symbol, but I believe that in all of them the idea of the “point and circle” remains.

I believe that the whole concept of point and circle is CENTRAL to Kyokushin Karate, and the more we understand it the more we see how it contains both complexity, and simplicity. This is how we should be as karate-ka... We should have a deep inner complex understanding of karate which is difficult to express in words, but be able to show it forth in simple grace of one smooth movement.

Osu!

"You have to practice circle training. One should never show ones back to the enemy, you must try to get him from behind. If you are to the side of your opponent you can win 60% of the time, if in front perhaps 50%, but if you can get to the back of your opponent you can win 70-80% of the time. Students must train how to come in from behind”

Anyone practising Enshin or Ashihara takes this as read, but I'm sure the concept would be unheard of in many current Kyokushin dojo. Interesting to see this was originally an integral part of the fabric of Kyokushin (along with grabbing and throwing, both more commonplace in the early days) It perhaps illustrates how the popularity of Knockdown has unwittingly veered the training away from it's roots.

(Don't get defensive! It's an observation; not a criticism)

Gary

[jcc]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu!

"You have to practice circle training. One should never show ones back to the enemy, you must try to get him from behind. If you are to the side of your opponent you can win 60% of the time, if in front perhaps 50%, but if you can get to the back of your opponent you can win 70-80% of the time. Students must train how to come in from behind”

Anyone practising Enshin or Ashihara takes this as read, but I'm sure the concept would be unheard of in many current Kyokushin dojo. Interesting to see this was originally an integral part of the fabric of Kyokushin (along with grabbing and throwing, both more commonplace in the early days) It perhaps illustrates how the popularity of Knockdown has unwittingly veered the training away from it's roots.

(Don't get defensive! It's an observation; not a criticism)

Gary

Osu! Gary,

I would definitely take this as a criticism, but a very valid one and something that everyone within the kyokushin community needs to think about seriously and maybe even start correcting, although I´m sure that there must be dojo/sensei out there who still practice these concepts. I find it hard to believe that it is not so. Anyone out there have any recent experience of this type of training?

[Kyokushin_Practioner]

wow,well said supergroup7. your words really touched me and elightened me as well i have a better understanding of the concept thanks to you.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by jcc

I would definitely take this as a criticism, but a very valid one and something that everyone within the kyokushin community needs to think about seriously and maybe even start correcting, although I´m sure that there must be dojo/sensei out there who still practice these concepts. I find it hard to believe that it is not so. Anyone out there have any recent experience of this type of training?

A positive critique perhaps?

I've been in a few of Dojo where the Knockdown element is second to other training, and these concepts are taught with varying degrees of success. As with anything, I don't think it's as style specific an issue as a Dojo specific one.

Osu!

[supergroup7]

Originally Posted by jcc

Osu! Gary,

Anyone out there have any recent experience of this type of training?

Tai sabaki? Ashi sabaki? Shifting to the side? Working to get to the back of your opponent? Circular movement?

Yes. I train in this all of the time, it's in every one of my kata, and I practice my kata frequently.

[jcc]

Originally Posted by supergroup7

Tai sabaki? Ashi sabaki? Shifting to the side? Working to get to the back of your opponent? Circular movement?

Yes. I train in this all of the time, it's in every one of my kata, and I practice my kata frequently.

Osu! supergroup7,

Yes, a good point, but unfortunately there is a huge leap between practicing kata to perfection and then utilizing some of the movements from the kata in kumite! And it seems that many people never actually make that leap.

The classic way of practicing sabaki is through renraku/ippon/sanbon kumite. This is what I was refering to, as well as the grappling/takedown aspects of karate, which seem to have been lost somewhere along the way.

Over the last few months I´ve been training (albeit occasionally) at 2 different dojo and have yet to see anything of this. Maybe I´ve missed those classes, I don´t know, but all I´ve seen is very basic 'linear' kihon and kd training. Thus my question.

And Dent, yes positive critique is better.

[supergroup7]

Osu Jcc,

It is true that one has to be able to decipher the movements in the kata to see their implications, and possible movements.

"The classic way of practicing sabaki is through renraku/ippon/sanbon kumite."

Odd.. It is my experience that in my city not only do the Kyokushin Dojo contain this element, but so do the Shotokan ones. When I was training in Shotokan, we would consistently be asked to do Ippon kumite with a partner, and shift to the side before our counter strike. This happened in the dozen of Shotokan dojo that I had attended.

Are we hinting at the thought that the Shotokan students are learning Tai sabaki more than the Kyokushin students of the world?

Osu! supergroup7

Tai sabaki (body evasion) is practised in many styles and martial arts. It is often just as simple as moving the body slightly out of the line of attack by "The width of a piece of paper" as it was first described to me by an Aikido sensei. This is found in many traditional kata (if you / your instructor knows where to look and dedicate sufficient time to it) This can in itself be a perilous path. There's a whole cottage industry of people discovering the hidden bunkai of ancient kata and theorising about what long-dead instructors really intended to show .... Interesting academic study I grant you, but since many of the bunkai 'experts' I've met had a headful of fantastic theoretical applications but could apply very few in sparring (Hicks law in action?) I wouldn't stake my life on it. There comes a point where simply knowing lots more stuff doesn't help, and the time would be better spent polishing what you can effectively apply.

As jcc points out, there is a huge leap from seeing tai sabaki in kata to making it your chosen instinctive fighting strategy, and then an even greater one to using effective Sabaki. When the word is used alone, it refers to the 'useful redirection of force' and realistically requires grabbing and turning the opponent with simultaneous body movement to implement successfully. This allows counters from the rear and / or from the 'blind spot' as in Enshin and Ashihara training (and I would venture to suggest as spoken of by Mas. Oyama in the quotes above) and is a facet of fighting strategy which appears to be lost to most Kyokushin dojo.

I repeat, this is not a criticism, but a statement of facts. Various things have been removed or sidelined from Kyokushin over the years. Face punches, groin kicks, grabbing and throwing and using sabaki. These changes have in some cases made training safer and the Tournaments 'cleaner' but inevitably have made practical applications and defences with or against those skills more distant. Many dojo are just too busy to include them in general training, I know I was when I taught Kyokushin!

Gary

[MilkManX]

That is something that I love about Enshin.

The Sabaki movement.

Its funny though since we split up my Kyokushin class between the kids/beginers and the Adults/Advanced class my Kyokushin Sensei is teaching Sabaki methods too.

He has studied alot though. He is a Nidan in Kyokushin and he also has Shodan in Shotokan and Shorin-Ryu.

So now basically I am getting alot of great Techniques from both the Enshin and Kyokushin Dojo's that I go to.

[bobh]

As mentioned this is also discussed in "This is karate." Points, lines, and circles can be great metaphors for lots of cool spiritual theories! I believe that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and that there is not a mystical meaning behind this motto.

I do have a new thought to add on this one... I am stretching here so forgive me. This comes from things I have been told about the early days of kyokushinkai and the feelings that some had regarding the JKA and Shotokan. I believe this principle was directed at "Japanese" arts (I know: crazy) but Sosai in his earlier editions mentions the superior aspects of kempo mainly circular techniques.

"Straight lines stem from this principle" I always took as referring to tangential lines.

I also find interesting the focus on compound circular movements such as is explained regarding chudan soto uke in several books (This is Karate, What is Karate, etc.) where the interdependent motion of the hips, shoulder, arms, wrist all play together.