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[Dent]

Osu!

While viewing a couple of other Profile threads today (And my apologies to Martin H for hogging space.), I saw that some of the competitors (female) are actually slightly shorter than my 10-year-old son. The weight difference is miniscule, and I'm sure he'll bypass them soon.

So here is the difficulty. Although he seems to be fairly large for his age, he is still mentally and emotionally a kid. Unfortunately, some older kids and even some adults have a tendency to be a little rough with him during Kumite.

I'm all for developing spirit, but it strikes me that's there's a fine line here.

What are your policies/ recommendations regarding big kids in your Dojo?

Osu!

[Nix]

I am the instructor of the highest graded junior class at my dojo, so I'm the boss of the big kids. There are general guidelines in the dojo, that applies to all students when doing kumite.

If there is a significant difference in size between two partners, the smallest decides how hard they will fight. Should they be of equal size, the lowest grade decides.

We are supposed to fight with the partner, not go completelly nuts - that way both learn how to improve. If some senior student pummels someone who is considerably smaller than them, they can probably expect a lesson from one of the sempai or the instructor (me). So if I fight one of the kids, I start out easy, then adjust it from there. If they punch harder, I punch harder. If they are very defensive, I cut them some slack and tell them to come at me. This also serves another great purpose; to set those straight who are over-confident .

All of my students are allowed to attend kumite practice with the adults every sunday morning, but I especially encourage the largest and highest graded of my students. I'm generally a bit rougher with them, in order to prepare them for senior class. I also tell them that they are free to attend the senior class once in a while, if they so wish. Even so, adults are of course told to go easy on them once they become senior students, untill they are used to it.

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for. Feel free to ask, if you want me to explain something in details. I'm also interested in learning how other people handle big juniors.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Thanks, Nix. I think that if I could have a Kids only group this would sort itself out. By having only a few people training, and most of those new to sparring, there is some confusion.

It seems that it's most difficult to explain the "with" rather than "against" concept. I also prefer to let the little critters have full swing against me, because it helps my own movement and conditioning, while giving them the chance to feel their bodies moving through the technique.

It sounds like I have to find a real facility for us to use, so we can split the sessions.

Osu!

[Ant]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

While viewing a couple of other Profile threads today (And my apologies to Martin H for hogging space.), I saw that some of the competitors (female) are actually slightly shorter than my 10-year-old son. The weight difference is miniscule, and I'm sure he'll bypass them soon.

So here is the difficulty. Although he seems to be fairly large for his age, he is still mentally and emotionally a kid. Unfortunately, some older kids and even some adults have a tendency to be a little rough with him during Kumite.

I'm all for developing spirit, but it strikes me that's there's a fine line here.

What are your policies/ recommendations regarding big kids in your Dojo?

Osu!

Hehe, I used to be one of those kids. When i used to train karate in a different style, I used to be put up against these 16 - 18 year old kids (when I was 11 years old) who were around the same size as me, no more than an inch or two taller, and they would pummel the hell out of me. Knowing that I was younger and weaker than them. I wish the senseis that used to teach me had some of the sensibility of the people on this forum.

[ksan]

I was placed in the senior group straight away when i walked into the dojo for the first time. I was to big to train with the juniors. I got hurt a lot the first few years (i ussually had lumps on my arms so big my arm was all wobbly when writing in school the next day). I never had any bad feelings about it... wouldnt do it any different if i had to go back.

[Dent]

Osu!

Two very different answers from the last two posters. That's what makes this so tough, finding the appropriate middle way...

Osu!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

Two very different answers from the last two posters. That's what makes this so tough, finding the appropriate middle way...

Osu!

Maybe you should let him decide for himself... if the adult clas is to much for him, he will own up to it eventually... (i think)

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by ksan

Maybe you should let him decide for himself... if the adult clas is to much for him, he will own up to it eventually... (i think)

He'd never admit it, Ksan. He'd rather be dragged over broken glass than say that, which is why I have to look out for him. I love that about my son, but I don't need him getting the same kinds of injuries that I got because no one did the same for me.

Osu!

[Nix]

Maybe I can show you a different point of view. As I have already pointed out, I am in the lower end of the light-weights. But when I was a junior, I felt I got held back in the junior class for way too long, since I couldn't partner up with anyone without having to be overly considerate. I could never go mental like I wanted to, but evolved a passive fighting style. I was much more at ease when stepping up to the senior class, even though some students did not offer the same consideration I did to the other kids in my former class (thus continuing my passive style). Today I teach a lot of students, who are turning senior just over summer. I try to encourage them to attend the senior class once in a while, to get a feel of how it'll be. No obligation, they can check it out without beeing forced to. After summer, it'll be a whole other deal, since my class is full, and the senior class lacks students - plus they are not really evolving anymore, as their efforts are no more than half-hearted.

I believe it's important to offer a smooth transition, and not force anyone into something they don't think they can handle. It's also important to be considerate with new seniors, while not pampering them. If possible, it would be great if there were other students at the same age and size, so to give them a realistic challenge.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dent]

Osu! Nix,

How is your class determined to be senior? Age? Rank? I think this will help me understand your post a little better.

Osu!

[Nix]

My apologies for beeing vague. On the paper, we divide children/junior and seniors at age 15. But we try to transfer the students in small batches; it's easier for the students if they are not alone. Each student is considered individually, though, so age is not the only factor. Size, abilities and maturity are also taken into consideration, so if a student is weak and frail, he will stay practicing in the junior class untill he is seen fit to become a senior. Some students have turned senior already at age 13, and at least one was nearly 17. I hope that helped in understanding my previous post.

(Also... virtual 1st kyu!)

[Dent]

Osu!

Thanks, Nix. The batch transfer is a good idea.

It sounds to me that I'd be better off with three options. 1) Kids sessions 2) Adults and kids who have been moved up 3) Family sessions so that the adults working with the younger kids are family members.

Any other ideas?

Osu!

[Nix]

Can't you just let him practice with the adults once in a while and see how things go? It's no fun if he isn't challenged, but it's equally bad to be hurled into something he isn't not ready for.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Nix

Can't you just let him practice with the adults once in a while and see how things go? It's no fun if he isn't challenged, but it's equally bad to be hurled into something he isn't not ready for.

Right now that's about all the practice he gets. I don't have a separate group for kids, and with such a new group, he winds up being at the front a lot. The adults don't seem able to see him as a big kid of 10, but as a mini-me.

(Adults can be a bit thick sometimes.)

I think I'm going to apply some of the great ideas I've been given here, and see whether we can make things a little more equitable for all.

Thanks for your help!

Osu!

[tmd]

I think as much as anything Dent you have the age old problem of heavy handed newbies? I've seen this a lot and seen it dealt with both well and badly (badly being to get one of the better fighters to kick the **** out of them to 'teach them a lesson!' What lesson they don't know anything!), talking to them and helping them understand that actually they are fighting a kid or fighting someone at an unagreed level. If they continue to be inappropriately heavy handed, when it's my time to spar with them I will usually just up the tempo and not hit them too hard but fast with lots of movement to try and make them realize theres so much more than just being a hard hitter, if they are persistently heavy handed I usually teach them about Gedan kicks (I have around 6 versions now .

I've trained for years with both the wife and the kids and when I think I'm going easy still sometimes I push a little too hard, they don't stop, in fact generally they go up a gear (I usually realize whats happened and turn it into a conditioning session for Dad ), I think this has helped them - Tell your boy to communicate with the other fighters and to use what he has to his advantage, for your part I would offer this advice make your instructions clear - "WE FIGHT AT AN AGREED LEVEL, THAT IS THE LEVEL AT WHICH THE OTHER PERSON IS HAPPY TO BE HIT NOT THE LEVEL YOU ARE HAPPY TO HIT THEM!" I say this at the start and if necessary repeated throughout our sparing sessions for both the kids & adults.

[kanku]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



Right now that's about all the practice he gets. I don't have a separate group for kids, and with such a new group, he winds up being at the front a lot. The adults don't seem able to see him as a big kid of 10, but as a mini-me.

(Adults can be a bit thick sometimes.)

I think I'm going to apply some of the great ideas I've been given here, and see whether we can make things a little more equitable for all.

Thanks for your help!

Osu!

osu dent!..just a thought but maybe they do see him as a "mini me" and that`s where the problem lies.....when they are sparring with him, they are sparring with the instructors son....when they put a technique in are they thinking....ah, little johnny can tell his old man about that one over dinner tonight!.. as you say people can be a bit thick!!.........................maybe i am thinking a little to deep about this?

have you sat and had a father son chat about this and if so what are his views? i know the responsibility is yours as a father/instructor and it must be your decision as to how you deal with it...but if you do get the "right" moment i think it would be worthwhile having a one on one with your son.

secretly he will be happy that you are concerned about his wellbeing and development...to many parents could not care less!.....just a thought.

[ksan]

I am thinking the samething as hasbeen... in my opininion, he might be toughening it out, but he will signal when its going to far...

I would have that talk, explain to him there is no disgrace if he has to step out and explain to the senior students that every last one of them should mind their contact when sparring with a junior (any junior). This is something you should be mindfull of anyways, if (and when) your group grows, als does its diversity. The "house wives" part of the group wont spar well with the "20-25 year old competition-ready-male`s" group. So will the 50+ group also not spar well with them. I am not talking down to any of the groups but speaking from experience, you need to keep an eye on those groups when they mix during sparing.

We have a lot of young tough boys in our oldest kid`s class but when the instructors spar with them and we take it up a few notches they all say yama when its enough for them (ussually later then i thought they would, but never has their happend any "accidents"...)

Osu

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by tmd

I would offer this advice make your instructions clear - "WE FIGHT AT AN AGREED LEVEL, THAT IS THE LEVEL AT WHICH THE OTHER PERSON IS HAPPY TO BE HIT NOT THE LEVEL YOU ARE HAPPY TO HIT THEM!"

Excellent, TMD! I think I'm going to print that out, and still it on the wall too. Very nice.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by hasbeen

when they are sparring with him, they are sparring with the instructors son....when they put a technique in are they thinking....ah, little johnny can tell his old man about that one over dinner tonight!.. as you say people can be a bit thick!!.........................maybe i am thinking a little to deep about this?

have you sat and had a father son chat about this and if so what are his views? i know the responsibility is yours as a father/instructor and it must be your decision as to how you deal with it...but if you do get the "right" moment i think it would be worthwhile having a one on one with your son.

secretly he will be happy that you are concerned about his wellbeing and development...to many parents could not care less!.....just a thought.

H, you must be reading my mind. I'm about to take the boy off on a bit of a shopping trip. These questions are on my list.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by ksan

I am thinking the samething as hasbeen... in my opininion, he might be toughening it out, but he will signal when its going to far...

I would have that talk, explain to him there is no disgrace if he has to step out and explain to the senior students that every last one of them should mind their contact when sparring with a junior (any junior). This is something you should be mindfull of anyways, if (and when) your group grows, als does its diversity. The "house wives" part of the group wont spar well with the "20-25 year old competition-ready-male`s" group. So will the 50+ group also not spar well with them. I am not talking down to any of the groups but speaking from experience, you need to keep an eye on those groups when they mix during sparing.

We have a lot of young tough boys in our oldest kid`s class but when the instructors spar with them and we take it up a few notches they all say yama when its enough for them (ussually later then i thought they would, but never has their happend any "accidents"...)

Osu

More good advice, Ksan. And a good reminder about the different demographics. Something for me to keep in mind if this little group grows any more. Thank you.

Osu!