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[Nix]

The LHC is the worlds largest particle accelerator, located 100 meters below ground near Geneva, Switzerland. The project has been under way for 20 years, and the actual experiments started today. The idea is to send a beam from each end of the 27 km long vacuum chamber, and make the particles collide. This has not been possible before, and it will basically be a small reproduction of Big Bang - just on a incredibly small scale, of course. Noone reallly knows what they might achieve, but no matter what, they will receive some interesting results. Perhaps the collision will tell us more about the world around us, what dark matter is, will we discover the Higgs boson, etc.

The project has received a lot of media coverage lately, as some critics claim the collision will produce a black hole, which will consume the Earth. This is however not possible, as the energy produced in the collision is insignificant, compared to the particles which collide with the Earth every day.

A beam has succesfully been sent in the clockwise direction, and they are as I write this (12:30 pm in Geneva - GMT+1) preparing for sending the beam in the opposite direction. Note that the experiment will run in the following month, and the particles will not collide today.

You can follow a live stream of the experiment here, or here.
Read more on the LHC on Wikipedia or at the official website.

[Kurisu]

Some feared that this expirement would end life as we know it. Well, as far as I can tell I'm still alive.... or am I???

[Nix]

Right now they are just testing the LHC by sending particles around. Later this month they will establish collisions and make the particles more intense. That's when things will get interesting. And then we'll die.

[Kurisu]

Well then we have one month to party like it's 1999... or something like that.

[Paedde]

You will be the first to post from inside a black hole on K4L Nix
Or maybe it will be me when you are not in Geneva then. Let's see

[tmd]

Hey! NOT BEFORE BRITISH OPEN I HOPE! I'VE ALREADY GOT MY TICKETS!!

Seems like a lot a $$ & work to go through just to try and fill one tiny gap in the 'experts' huge chasm of understanding regarding the cosmos and in what way will it EVER actually benefit us?

It might help us understand what dark mater is - SO WHAT?
It might help us age the universe - SO WHAT?
It might tell us whether we are expanding or contracting - SO WHAT?
It might tell us in how many BILLIONS of years the universe will implode - SO WHAT?

I was taught years ago that- if the answer can be so what?, don't ask the question. These kind of grandiose experiments do not benefit mankind in any way they are there to entertain the intellectual elite and give them something to argue over in publications with such infinitesimally small and inbred readerships as to be not worth the, better served first time around recycled toilet paper they are written.

So not a fan then? errr no. I like engineering, and love science based engineering that helps us to keep moving forward and understand the mistakes we have and do make. Spend the cash and scientific wizardry on something that will DO something for us now and in the future, I do not see how understanding the big bang will do anything for us except help those involved secure tenure.

PS: I love being wrong about these things: If it will solve, the food shortage, the fuel shortage, help us to readdress or greater understand the issue of climate change, bring about world peace, see us colonies far off worlds then great bring it on and here use so me more of my taxes to pay for it.

[kakatootoshi]

In a month's time we can train with Oyama Sosai, Andy Hug Shihan and many other great names in Kyokushin.

OSU!

[Nix]

tmd,

With that attitude, we would still be stuck in the dark ages. Without experiments, you can never prove your theories, and progress will not be made. Perhaps this experiment will not help us much on a short basis, but I think it will be a great benefit in the long run. The results will tell us a little bit of what is and what is not possible, and this will spark new theories and eventually new amazing future technologies - although we may not even be able to comprehend them with our primitive knowledge of today. Maybe it will give us a clean and efficient source of energy. Maybe it will lead to interdimensional travel over time or planes. We should not limit ourselves, but instead evolve through science. Possibilities are endless!

[Kurisu]

I like the interdimensional travel idea as long as it doesn't end up like it did in Event Horizon.

[jcc]

Osu!

It does seem like a lot of money for little obvious gain, but at least it isn´t killing anyone - i.e. compared with what the US and UK have paid/are paying for the Iraqi farce (all based on a BigBigLie) the LHC is peanuts.

My apologies if this is too political, but imho has to be said.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

At what cost, knowledge?

IMO, our time here is limited. This planet can't sustain us indefinitely, and a species ending cataclysm is perpetually just around the corner.

The more we know about sub-atomic particles, the better chance we have of finding a way off this rock. Overall, it seems a better use of our resources than some of what I read about on a daily basis.

Osu!

[Nix]

The LHC has now successfully made a beam go one revoloution both ways.

To elaborate on the gains aside from the scientific results, many things have needed to be developed in order to build the LHC. For example, the machine needs to be cooled down to below the temperature in outer space, and need to have better vacuum than in outer space. The technology used for this can be used in the industry, which will then function more efficiently. Furthermore, they are using grid computing, which combines several computers in a very complex network. Users may benefit from this technology in a few years.

Besides, the project has created many jobs, and you need to also remember that the money is not thrown into a black hole. They are invested in the companies and people who made the tunnel, and whom work on it today. By spending money, they are efectivelly put into circulation. Money will never just disappear, they will eventually come back, because that's the way the economic system works. And it has already been mentioned that the money invested in CERN and the LHC-project (and physics as a whole) is cupcakes compared to what is beeing invested in arms technology research.

Meanwhile, this is an interesting webiste: Has the Large Hadron Collider destroyed the world yet?

[powerof0ne]

This will hopefully also provide more insite on parallel universes and give credence to the m-theory or f-theory of 11 to 12 dimensions. The possibilities of what information this could provide human kind could be the greatest discovery we have ever made. If the "string" is proven I can't even begin to imagine the ramifications.
We hardly know crap about black holes, just guesses.
I don't mean to nitpick but wasn't this project started in 84 which would make it around 24 years in the making? It's also funny to me how some people claimed this was "the manhattan project" even though they'd allow people to look at it and take pictures. Makes you wonder if this is public what other governments are doing that isn't public knowledge Just finished doing some reading on my plane flight(just arrived in WA state from NC yesterday)about parallel universes and that sort of thing. I'm into sci fi but more into reality, especially when these magnets in the collider can make the attoms go near the speed of light.
This kind of research could help us travel further into space because of: gaining more knowledge on what dark matter is, how and why it appears, the "god" atom, and on parallel universes. Stephen Hawking is a firm advocate on human kind increasing research on space travel because of a fear that we will end life on Earth eventually. I hate to say it, but I agree with him, with advances in our technology and using up nonrenewable resources, nuclear capablities, melting of polar ice caps, etc...how much longer can we survive on Earth?

[tmd]

Not true Nix not true at all - I am an engineer and have even 'invented' my own stuff to make my life easier, IMO engineers revolutionize scientist theorize - what I object to with these grand scale, pass me the Nobel price stuff is it takes the funding away from smaller more manageable more directly effective projects, in this way it's the science equivalent of the Olympics, right now and for the last year or so the UK you can't get funding for squat if it's not an Olympic sport, a few years ago a mate of mine got all new mats for his large dojo paid for by the lottery sports grants but now coz we ain't an Olympic sport we had to fork out £5K of our own money for just enough mats to hold a tourney - this happens to smaller projects in science too as all the funding is sucked up by these big time Charlie projects, the cost was spread across 20 countries and 5 big organizations as well as 10 other smaller ones so that means as a country we should have given about $250M toward the project but hey were the UK so we gave $1B.

Yes I want hover boots and time travel as much as the next man and I understand that history shows us that evolution comes from explosive and reactionary leaps rather but I would also like us to concentrate on sustaining life o this planet rather than chasing the dream of escaping it just before we've completely ruined it


IMO - Dark mater is the scientist way of explaining away the 95% of the universe they can't work out - if this machine means they can understand 100% more that still leaves another 90% they don't have clue about - for $10B?

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by tmd

IMO - Dark mater is the scientist way of explaining away the 95% of the universe they can't work out

Yup. Most scientists had mean mothers...

Osu!

[shinobijesus]

im so with you on the martial arts aspects tmd, but im fiercely opposed on this issue. this is an incredibly important step in science. i really dont know what to address in your posts though because you said so many different things.

i will point out though that trying to fully comprehend the nature of reality is tantamount to trying to understand god and practically as arrogant. better that our goal is simply the pursuit of knowledge for the general welfare and survival of our species.

that extra little 5% they learn about dark matter might end up being our next type of energy source. with every country going into debt the likes of which we never thought possible we could reengineer society to run off energy from these infinitely powerful powerplants. whats the bad part in all of that hypothetical scenario? the debt? money is the most poisonous abstract concept we have ever conceived. think of where we could be if we never invented money and resources were used efficiently instead of research being held back due to "lack of funding".

did you know they were very close to not funding the research for electrifying various gasses in glass tubes? they went ahead with that crackpot scheme and it led to television. we cant ever say whats going to lead to what.

whats the worst case scenario of the LHC? (i swear to god if anyone quotes that and spouts off some doomsday scenario BS i will hunt you down and sparr the crap out of you) the worst case scenario is that we learn you cant just make collider technology bigger and expect it to go places it hasnt been yet. they will learn that the American style of performance car engines mentality doesnt translate to collider technology. for the small sum of 10B dollars. an abstract number that translates to a worthless statistic in reality in pursuit of an abstract ideal that could translate to a priceless leap in technological advancement.

"i havent failed. ive identified 10,000 ways this doesnt work" - Thomas Edison

[wakajishi]

Will any of the above help us in the war against the Klingons?

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by wakajishi

Will any of the above help us in the war against the Klingons?

yes.

[kanku]

my take on all of this is.....i think it`s the experiments you don`t know about are the one`s that should be "cause for concern"

how many people must have thought stealth bombers were flying saucers before they were made public............................most people fear things they know nothing about........imo this would not have been made public if there was any real danger.....however i will stick my fingers in my ears on the day!

[tmd]

Shinobi, Shinobi, Shinobi, please feel free to question my point of view, it's a debate and a welcome one, I for one never consider myself to be 100% right about anything but I like to question the popular view of things, I was not asked if $1B of my taxes (Our country currently makes about 90% of what it's government spends trying to look like a world power ) should be spent on an experimental piece of kit, if anything of value comes out of this some company will patent it and make a fortune out of it and we will gain nothing but the ability to buy more stuff.

I hope it is the answer to all things but it seems to me like a very expensive way to decide who wins a prize...

Taken form the timesonline......A row between two of the world’s most famous scientists yesterday threatened to overshadow the celebrations as the world’s greatest scientific experiment got under way.

Professor Peter Higgs, the scientist who gave his name to the Higgs boson, the particle at the centre of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) experiment, launched a withering attack on Professor Stephen Hawking, saying his work was “not good enough”.

Professor Higgs dismissed the views on the project of the man generally considered to be the greatest physicist of his time, and said that no other particle physicist would view his approach as “correct”.

Both men are contenders for the Nobel prize — depending on the outcome of the experiment — and their spat is likely to send shockwaves through the scientific Establishment.

Professor Higgs, who faced a press conference in Edinburgh yesterday, was reacting to an interview in which Professor Hawking jokingly suggested that it would be “more exciting” if the experiment at CERN on the Franco-Swiss border did not find the “God particle” it has been set up to identify.

“That will show something is wrong,” he said, “and we will need to think again.” ....

side note: It's been nick named the God Particle? Peter Higgs is an atheist! How ironic is that!

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

I will point out though that trying to fully comprehend the nature of reality is tantamount to trying to understand god and practically as arrogant. better that our goal is simply the pursuit of knowledge for the general welfare and survival of our species.

This is my whole point, - do things that benefit us, not answer intellectual theories for the sake of it

that extra little 5% they learn about dark matter might end up being our next type of energy source. with every country going into debt the likes of which we never thought possible we could reengineer society to run off energy from these infinitely powerful powerplants. whats the bad part in all of that hypothetical scenario? the debt? money is the most poisonous abstract concept we have ever conceived. think of where we could be if we never invented money and resources were used efficiently instead of research being held back due to "lack of funding".


I really really really hope you're right I want this thing to solve or at least assist with all the issues I raised, food, fuel, climate change etc but this is my point - more practical experiments are held back because of lack of funding coz it's going to these, headline schemes.

did you know they were very close to not funding the research for electrifying various gasses in glass tubes? they went ahead with that crackpot scheme and it led to television.

Yes and this cost peanuts and probably struggled for funding coz everyone was trying to out do each other with Nuclear stuff and soaking up all the funding!

whats the worst case scenario of the LHC? (i swear to god if anyone quotes that and spouts off some doomsday scenario BS i will hunt you down and sparr the crap out of you) the worst case scenario is that we learn you cant just make collider technology bigger and expect it to go places it hasnt been yet. they will learn that the American style of performance car engines mentality doesnt translate to collider technology. for the small sum of 10B dollars. an abstract number that translates to a worthless statistic in reality in pursuit of an abstract ideal that could translate to a priceless leap in technological advancement.

"i havent failed. ive identified 10,000 ways this doesnt work" - Thomas Edison

Love the Edison quote by the way - one of the great pioneers of both engineering and business - he received plenty of government funding but patented everything and now the largest engineering company in the world today is the one he started (GE in case you didn't know was originally Edison General Electric) How much from each light bulb or Power Station does the American tax payer get.errrrr....0.

Interesting note as you mention power source......direct form the LHC site.

When the LHC is up and running the total average power for the whole CERN site will peak during July at about 180 MW(h) of which:

LHC cryogenics 27.5 MW
LHC experiments 22 MW
If we include the base load for the whole site, the LHC contribution totals around 120 MW. (The number for just the LHC machine, not including the experiments or the site base load, would a fair bit less.)

During winter, when the accelerators are not running, CERN's total consumption drops to about 35 MW.

Energy
[Assume 720 hours per month for June, say, - 180 MW gives 130 GWh.]

CERN predicted total for the year 2009 with LHC fully operational is around 1000 GWh of which around 700 GWh might be attributed to the LHC (machine, experiments, baseload).


The canton of Geneva uses 41 PJ/year (heating, transport, electricity) i.e. around 11.4 TWh, so CERN comes in at less that 10% of the total energy consumption of the canton. (love the way they say it ONLY consumes 10% of an entire 1M strong region canton (region).)

CERN does not generate any of its own power, although it does have diesel generators (UPS) as back-up in the case of power cuts to run essential services. This place was built over the last 20 odd years, why no wind turbines or Hydro plant to run it!!!!