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[powerof0ne]

I think I'm going to try to make a video of this and post it on utube to really demonstrate what I'm talking about.
I teach Muay Thai at a Kempo dojo and the problem I've seen with most of the practitioners here and at other Karate dojo is that when they knee, they are mostly kneeing upwards and then forward. This makes for a short knee, which would mean having to get very close to get any power if you were to knee forward. The only time it's good to knee upwards is if your target(have them bent over in a clinch) is above your knee. Otherwise you won't get much power from the knee strike.
In Muay Thai, when performing a long knee the key at getting power is really going through(forward). You have to fully extend with your hip and with a smoove ongoing motion with your supporting foot be on the ball and roll forward to even go a little more forward to get that extra oomph. This little movement will enable you to get more power. So to recap..The knee comes up and forward/through the target when performing a long knee. You also must be on the ball of your supporting foot and roll forward a little bit, the timing has to be contious. Someone not familiar to Muay Thai won't even notice the rolling forward motion because it's very subtle.
Knees in Muay Thai are very effective because of the clinch/neck wrestling! In my opinion, this is an art within itself because it is stand up grappling. Many strategies exist within this range that I feel words won't do justice explaining. However, I will say that a good clinch requires you to keep your head up, be on the balls of your feet the whole time and to stay close/tight. So close that your head is going to almost be right against your opponents or literally against your opponents. You'd be surprised at how many people I see in training that don't want to get this close(maybe they think they'll get cooties :lol: ) which causes them to not do certain knee strikes correct.
In no way is this a complete "how to" on a Muay Thai knee or neck wrestling, only training at an authentic Muay Thai gym will show you how. Be warned that you might not really be shown for a while, I know that in some Muay Thai gyms they don't really delve into the proper mechanics of the knee with the finer points of neck wrestling until you've trained a year+.

[ibuki]

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

I think I'm going to try to make a video of this and post it on utube to really demonstrate what I'm talking about.

looking forward to seeing the video :wink:

[James]

thanks, that was well written. I think anyone comfortable with kneeing, will be able to visualise the adjustments you are talking about.
Osu!

[Kurisu]

Thanks, I like it when people tell me I'm doing something wrong especially when they've never seen me fight.

[Nix]

Relax, Kurisu, no need to take it personal. powerofOne is speaking about a general observation, he is not pointing fingers.

I agree that the power is much greater when the knee is thrusted forward, and with correct use of the hip. This is also what I've always been taught, and how we practice it in our dojo. But wouldn't it be more nescesarry to drive the knee upwards, the closer you are? Also, I recently practiced in an authentical muay thai gym in Thailand. I had only read good reviews on this place, but many of their techniques struck me as odd, especially the knee to the side (mawashi hiza geri). Instead of opening up in the hip, and driving the knee horizontaly into the partner, we were told that we should instead let the leg hang vertically, and drive it sideways into the side of your partner, thus hitting with your thigh. I failed to see how to get any sort of power into the kick, and the instructor also failed to demonstrate it on me. I do realize that the technique would be executed differently in a fight, but I actually went to see a tournament with someone who supposedly were top-notch fighters, and they still used this (IMO) sloppy technique.

This reminds me of two things: 1) I need to write that blog on my muay thai experience, and 2) I need to teach my students to do a proper knee for next weekends tournament.

Osu!

[Kurisu]

Sorry, Nix but I have to disagree with you regarding powerofone's post. That has to be the most condesending post that I've seen on this board since I've been here. The mods don't allow us to discuss politics but they allow an "outsider" to tell us that we're doing something incorrectly. To me, it goes back to the "my style is better than your style argument" and if we're going to censure political threads then we may as well censure this thread.

Powerofone, I take exception to your post. I could easily criticize kempo and muay thai but I'm going to take the high ground on this one. Maybe you could learn from my example.

[vapor]

Kurisu...you do need to chill.

While you may not like how the title was written, if you read the post, it is a tutorial on Muay Thai knees, and hardly anything to take offense at.

I certainly don't read it as a "my style is better" swipe, thus nothing will be done with the original post.

If you find troubles with this decision, then I would suggest that you write it off as something you don't agree with, and don't give this thread second thought. There are plenty of other topics being discussed.

vapor

[Kurisu]

Really? You don't see this as being my style is superior?

"the problem I've seen with most of the practitioners here and at other Karate dojo is that when they knee, they are mostly kneeing upwards and then forward"

[vapor]

nope. I don't read it that way. It is an observation made at the kempo dojo he is active at, and information on a different way to do it.

It is not criticism on how you knee, personally...

If there is something that can be gained from the info given on how Muay Thai practioners execute their knees, then we are better off for it.

If there is confidence in how you handle this particular move, then, it is just a bit more information, and may even prove useful if you have the chance to spar with someone from this background.

vapor

[Kurisu]

Wow, if the shoe were on the other foot I'd be criticized harshly. Try making a judgement about Muay Thai techniques on a Muay Thai message board and see how well you fair. When I see "other Karate dojo[s]" I assume that he's referring to us (Kyokushin).

And trust me, I know a thing or two about Muay Thai.

[DKKC]

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

In Muay Thai, when performing a long knee the key at getting power is really going through(forward). You have to fully extend with your hip and with a smoove ongoing motion with your supporting foot be on the ball and roll forward to even go a little more forward to get that extra oomph. This little movement will enable you to get more power. So to recap..The knee comes up and forward/through the target when performing a long knee. You also must be on the ball of your supporting foot and roll forward a little bit, the timing has to be contious. Someone not familiar to Muay Thai won't even notice the rolling forward motion because it's very subtle.

But this is how we do our knee kicks at the club as well!

Osu!

Maybe he was trying to help?

I welcome advice - most people have to pay for instruction, but it's free here.

Try it! If it doesn't work, bin it. But above all, keep an open mind.

Gary

[vapor]

Kurisu

Thank you.

You have stated your opinion, but that does not sway the decision that the thread will stay as is.

vapor

[intwominds]

I for one appreciate the original post, and take no offense to it. As Gary stated, its good to get some free instruction. We obviously practice both ways, with the knee coming up high (as in hiza ganmen geri) and the knee coming forward (as in hiza mae geri), but I have never consciously thought about rolling on to the ball of the supporting foot, so will take note of it when I am next practicing these moves.

[kyofighter]

There are diferences between the thai knee and the karate knee. We can always argue wich one is more effective , but i think it is all about the context. In muay thai you are allowed to clinch, so everything changes then. In karate you can't hold so the knee needs to be fast so you are able to still defend yourself.
I think it makes sense that the thai fighters are more eficient with their knees, because they are training to use it more and they use it a lot in their fights, just like for example a good kyokushin guy can perform great high kicks ( round, axe, spinning).
There is no need to argue and get offended by this things and I don't find power's post that way.
Osu.

[jcc]

Originally Posted by kyofighter

In karate you can't hold so the knee needs to be fast so you are able to still defend yourself.

Osu.

Uuuhhhmmmm - sorry, no. In tournament knockdown no holding - in karate, you do as you find necessary, even headbutts, eye-gouging etc. And since when do we not use hip in our techniques - especially kicks??? Rolling the hip to get a bit more distance/power in the technique is normal - but maybe does need reiterating. OK

[kyofighter]

jcc you are right, I was refering to tournaments ... and I never said anything about not using your hips...if we extend to free fighting then things change ...
anyways, there is always something to say about how and when you use a chosen technique...
it depends also on the fighter, I've seen fighters with not so impressive technique being very efficient and fighters with great technique not being able to use it well...

[Dent]

Osu!

The thing about any body part is the numerous ways in which it can be used. Most painful knee I've ever experienced was a variation on the straight arm-bar, where the instructor used his knee on my face as the pivot point for the arm-bar. I'd be willing to bet there were dancers and a big band in the Dojo about midway through, but then they were gone, and only a dull ache and the marks remained.

By training with many different people, we gain from their perspectives and experience. Thanks for sharing.

Osu!

[jcc]

Originally Posted by kyofighter

... and I never said anything about not using your hips...if we extend to free fighting then things change ...

Osu! Sorry, I was refering to the original post there, not yours.

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

The thing about any body part is the numerous ways in which it can be used. Most painful knee I've ever experienced was a variation on the straight arm-bar, where the instructor used his knee on my face as the pivot point for the arm-bar. I'd be willing to bet there were dancers and a big band in the Dojo about midway through, but then they were gone, and only a dull ache and the marks remained.

Osu!

Now, this video I would like to see!

[smoothsake]

The one thing I've noticed in my limited experience with MT is that MT instructors seem to make a very big deal about pointing the toes down when you knee. Karate doesn't seem to emphasize this so much, but I think pointing the toes down does make your knee a bit sharper. Personally speaking even in KK, I do not intend the knee to travel fast up as much as I want it to travel fast forward, just like in MT. The reason is I'm not really aiming it as a jodan hiza at the ganmen; I tend to aim more at suigetsu or liver so the knee is travelling either forward or from the side. Perhaps the MT knee and the KK knee is not so different...