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[powerof0ne]

Osu!
This is something that may have seen painfully obvious to some of you right away or you may disagree with me but I will state some of the differences I notice between knockdown kumite and muay thai/kickboxing.

In knockdown kumite having no face punches will make some fighters keep coming forward while taking punhishment while in Muay Thai/kickboxing you don't see this as often because if you did you would take a lot of punishment to the head/face.

The pace of muay thai/kickboxing is slower (usually) due to longer matches and/or face punches/elbows (?).

I am still an advocate of both knockdown and muay thai, I think they add to eachother. However, I almost think it's harder for a muay thai fighter to "convert" to fighting in knockdown rules for various reasons.
One being they are used to punching/elbowing to the face head which a friend of mine did at a tournament we both competed at not on purpose..he was just so used to punching to the face.

I also think having opponents that keep coming forward throws off a lot of thaiboxers/kickboxers. Yes, you have people that come forward in muay thai and this is kind of old school muay thai thinking (for one step back, 2 forward, etc.) but in knockdown I have seen people that just keep moving forward while throwing chudan tsuki, etc.
I think it's easier for a knockdown fighter to convert to muay thai/kickboxing/k-1 rules if they train with a good coach in that style of fighting..Than again these are just my observances and opinion.

However, I don't think a good thaiboxer that competes in knockdown takes much of a risk of getting injured as much in knockdown rules due to the habbit of keeping a high guard and their general defense overall. I think the problem has more to do with developing muscle memory of using combinations that don't have the ol' jab, cross, hook, uppercut to the head

Last but not least is full clinching isn't allowed at any knockdown tournament. Sure, Sabaki tournaments allow some same side clinching but it's not the same as neck wrestling.

Any other thoughts greatly appreciated because I will gladly change my mind when I see some better ideas & reasoning
Osu!

[Nix]

I tried a little MT when I was in Thailand, and I had a hard time adjusting to the fighting style. I also spectated a tournament, and quite honestly, I was not very impressed. I think one of my concerns, was that the fighters were very passive, much like in traditional karate and TKD. At one point, the fighters danced around in the ring for about a minute, without throwing a single technique - then the bell rang. On the other hand, I don't like watching rhino fighters either, which is too often seen in knockdown karate.

[powerof0ne]

Out of curiosity what stadium did you watch thaiboxing fights at? I've seen some in smaller venue that are as you describe but most I have seen in Lumpini or Rajadamner usually have some high paced fights. However, the first round and usually the second round are slow paced in thaiboxing.
A lot of experienced thaiboxers generally act very laid back and passive to try and show nothing is effecting them.
Osu!

[Nix]

Lamai Stadium on Koh Samui. I visited WMC Camp Samui.

[harukaze]

I believe this is a very illustrative example of the point that Nak Muay transitioning into Kyokushin rules have trouble withholding from face punching (I know I've had the same issues... apologies to all my senpai who have had to help me... "fix" these problems )

You Tube

[smoothsake]

To agree with your point above, it is easier to turn on the face punch switch for a Kyokushin fighter than to turn the face punch switch off for a MT/kickboxing fighter. This is brutal to watch but I think this proves the point:

You Tube

Since there is no holding and rarity of limbs getting locked, Kyokushin fights are more fast paced with much less ref intervention. This means there is less time to bounce around and look good. And since there are no headpunch KOs, Kyokushin fighters rely more so on the knockout power of the kick so with knockdown fights you see more variety of technique. Another observation is since it is nearly impossible to attack while you are getting punched in the face, in knockdown fights you see two people attacking at the same time. Also there is the issue of big boxing gloves in MT...

To MT's credit, I do like the neck wrestling aspect. Quite effective for setting up an elbow or a knee. MT doesn't use the fancy techniques, and sticks to the basics which is good for the street. Also MT guard being higher is better since more likely than not your attacker is going for your nose or chin.

Having dabbled in MT a little, there's plenty more differences...

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

i've taken muay thai fighters to knock down tournaments and they've done well. even without the clinch, thai fighters throw better knees. the main difference is the delivery of techniques. karate fighters snap techniques (i.e. roundhouse kick) and thai fighters swing into their techniques. the karateka will throw more techniques and the thai boxer will throw less trying to make their blows heavy (because of the clinch you will have a hard time throwing a long combination). the karate fighter will have more techniques and angles whereas the thai fighter doesn't use as large an arsenal of techniques (in regards to the kicks).

[powerof0ne]

I've seen mixed results of muay thai fighters enter knockdown tournaments. At the higher echelon of knockdown tournaments how many thaiboxers do you see win? I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head..I've seen a few do "ok", but definitely not win. I've only seen thaiboxers win in smaller knockdown tournaments but than again I don't follow knockdown tournaments as well as I follow muay thai, mma, and bjj.
I'm not saying this is just because of the style I'm sure if some thaiboxers devoted themself to getting accustomed to knockdown for a year or two solid they could do pretty well but I don't know many that don't.
Once I turned down fighting on a maurice smith card and his partner Kirk Jensen gave me crap for doing a knockdown tournament instead..so there are those in thaiboxing/kickboxing that definitely think "the ring" is the cream of the crop. I don't know, I would disagree, I think knockdown tournaments take some skill and technique to do well in.
I'm really liking getting all of your input on this because this is something I have thought a lot about lately.
Osu!

[harukaze]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

i've taken muay thai fighters to knock down tournaments and they've done well. even without the clinch, thai fighters throw better knees. the main difference is the delivery of techniques. karate fighters snap techniques (i.e. roundhouse kick) and thai fighters swing into their techniques. the karateka will throw more techniques and the thai boxer will throw less trying to make their blows heavy (because of the clinch you will have a hard time throwing a long combination). the karate fighter will have more techniques and angles whereas the thai fighter doesn't use as large an arsenal of techniques (in regards to the kicks).

That description of techniques and their employment pretty much matches up with my meager experiences in regards to MT practitioners and their contrast with karateka. Osu!

[whatever123]

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

In knockdown kumite having no face punches will make some fighters keep coming forward while taking punhishment while in Muay Thai/kickboxing you don't see this as often because if you did you would take a lot of punishment to the head/face.

Agreed, i tried cross training in muay thai recently took a lot punishment to the face than i thought

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

The pace of muay thai/kickboxing is slower (usually) due to longer matches and/or face punches/elbows (?).

True

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

I am still an advocate of both knockdown and muay thai, I think they add to eachother. However, I almost think it's harder for a muay thai fighter to "convert" to fighting in knockdown rules for various reasons.
One being they are used to punching/elbowing to the face head which a friend of mine did at a tournament we both competed at not on purpose..he was just so used to punching to the face.

most of the videos posted above illustrated this point very well

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

Last but not least is full clinching isn't allowed at any knockdown tournament. Sure, Sabaki tournaments allow some same side clinching but it's not the same as neck wrestling.

The clinch is a devastating technique.

When i was sparring with a taller opponent i tried going in to close the his range as i usually do in kyokushin and he got me in the clinch had a lot of trouble with that

my only addittion is that unless the Muay Thai fighter is a compettive fighter mid-section conditioning (absorping body shots) will not be in the highest priority list in training

[shidokanatlanta]

training in muay thai requires a lot of conditioning. the do a lot of clinch sparring with knees. the inside of the knee is slapping hard to the body to condition the mid-section for blows and condition the muscles of the hips to deliver strong knees. this is required for anyone who trains true muay thai.

[Martin H]

How do shidokan deal with throws in clinch?
This is pretty much banned in thaiboxing (tou are allowed to fling the opponent by rotating while holding his head, but not to do any real THROWS), but I have seen it sometimes in shidokan knockdown karate clinches.
Do it change the clinch in any way?

[whatever123]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

training in muay thai requires a lot of conditioning. the do a lot of clinch sparring with knees. the inside of the knee is slapping hard to the body to condition the mid-section for blows and condition the muscles of the hips to deliver strong knees. this is required for anyone who trains true muay thai.

osu
I am sure you know more about this than i would ever do

My observation was only after 3 weeks training in muay thai i might have missed it

[shidokanatlanta]

clinching and kneeing makes standard throws from the clinch more difficult. i use gi as well as the head and body to grab and pull into the knees. with the thai clinch (grabbing the head), you use are elbows as spacers to keep the opponent from closing the gap easily. i will soften him up with a knee and then throw. most shidokan fighters will clinch and knee on the inside as a thai fighter would. some guys have good judo backgrounds and can set up sweeps and throws well. a throw is cool, but they usually get back up. in the clinch i would say knee first is it just a powerful weapon at this range. a couple of good knees and then don't want to get to close.

[jcc]

Osu!

I was just wondering what incentive there would be for any (professional) MT fighter to enter an (amateur) knockdown competition? I would have thought quite the opposite. If they didn´t do well, it would harm their reputation and winning wouldn´t bring any financial gain. Any thoughts about this?

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

an elite level professional fighter might not have any incentive to enter a knockdown tournament. on a lower level they might, as some events will have prize money. If they came up in a karate style, they will show support for such events. i have some fighters who fight muay thai and mma, but may compete in knockdown because they teach and it inspires students starting out whereas there are a few who won't fight for free anymore. i was a pro boxer and kickboxer before i fought in shidokan triathlon tournaments. there was prize money involved for 1st place and runner up. i entered for the challenge, not the money (lose your first fight and you get nothing). nowadays it would be next to impossible to get fighters to fight for the sake of fighting. everybody wants to get paid.

[powerof0ne]

I primarily fought muay thai in BC (Canada) and would get paid, but not much but hotel/gas money/food was also paid for. My first muay thai fight was this way and so on..I still competed in a Sabaki tournament knowing I had to pay to enter and did it because I wanted to before I ever trained in muay thai. I used to do throws and takedowns in muay thai but all it did was slow down the fight and didn't seem to do any damage on my opponent. My opponent would get right back up and if you were really good you could even kick or knee your opponent before they hit the ground. You'll see some elite level thaiboxers pull this off sometimes. I never even attempted to do it because I figured I'd probably do it after they landed on the ground(this is allowed in full muay thai rules) and it always seemed brutal to me.
The throws/takedowns are done from the clinch but you don't have to clinch just by the neck, too. The neck is 9 times out of 10 the superior position to have dominance in the clinch but you can clinch around the torso and knee your opponent, too. This is usually what happens when 2 good kneers are exchanging knees from the clinch and one gets dominance on the neck so the other goes for the body clinch and tries to snake an arm(s) in their opponents clinch so they can win over the neck clinch.
I actually sometimes prefer to have one arm around my opponent's neck and the other around their body for certain set ups in the clinch. Sometimes too much time is wasted on 2 people trying to get dominance of the clinch on eachother's necks when I'd rather just get any clinch right away to be using that time to knee and position for whatever opportunity gives me.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

Sometimes too much time is wasted on 2 people trying to get dominance of the clinch on eachother's necks when I'd rather just get any clinch right away to be using that time to knee and position for whatever opportunity gives me.

I think that this is where neck and elbow comes into its own. When tied up with a really good clinch artist, the only options I seem to have are that and the body lock. (Face pushing is begging for the knee. I won't make that mistake twice!)

The former gives enough room for me to work top and bottom.

Osu!