"Drilling" the punch

BigAl · 06-28-2006, 04:36 AM

One of my sempai taught me this today, it's something he learned off of Shihan Farrel. I'm not very good at it though, in fact I actually suck at it but in the two or three times I actually got it to work I could feel a difference. It's basically landing the punch while simultaneously turning the palm down so you're essentially "drilling" into him to get more penetration. I'm still a relatively newb to Kyokushin, so is there any good way to practice this aside from just repetition? I'm going to try it out on my heavy bag too.

akeiko · 06-29-2006, 12:50 AM

I would add that it is not only penetration but direction as well, providing stability to the punch. Phisics, my Kohai!

**Shokei Marcsui** · 06-29-2006, 07:07 AM

In shotokan we turned the fist before impact. It seems that in kyokushin the turning of the fist is slightly delayed which I am getting used to as well. Which ever works for you as long as the remaining body mechanics of your punch work, this can be an "aside" to play around with.

anarki13 · 06-29-2006, 03:50 PM

turning the punch inwards causes more friction == more pain to the opponent, u need to train on the heavy bag...

repetition, while boring it may seem, is the only way to perfect ur technique..

Osu!

**Shokei Marcsui** · 06-29-2006, 08:30 PM

Somehow I don't think the twisting is to cause friction. I'm thinking it's to add snap to the punch. Because you are not executing a punch by making contact then twisting your fist into the target. It seems that it works by twisting your fist just before you make contact.

BigAl · 06-30-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

In shotokan we turned the fist before impact. It seems that in kyokushin the turning of the fist is slightly delayed which I am getting used to as well. Which ever works for you as long as the remaining body mechanics of your punch work, this can be an "aside" to play around with.

I learned the same in goju and kenpo, so it's going to take some getting used to. I'm mostly just concentrating on going super slow and punching at a wall so by the end it's rotating as soon as my knuckles are almost touching the wall.

**Shokei Marcsui** · 06-30-2006, 04:25 PM

Have you noticed this at all? The turning of the fist at a later time seems to throw a little shoulder into your punch. My sensei noticed that I tend to punch in a boxing hook rather than the straight punch of karate when we kumite. Perhaps the kyokushin turning of the fist is to generate additional power from the shoulder that a boxing hook would have.

BigAl · 06-30-2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

Have you noticed this at all? The turning of the fist at a later time seems to throw a little shoulder into your punch. My sensei noticed that I tend to punch in a boxing hook rather than the straight punch of karate when we kumite. Perhaps the kyokushin turning of the fist is to generate additional power from the shoulder that a boxing hook would have.

I was a boxer myself, and I can definitely feel a bit more snap into it by turning at a later time than as I learned before. My punches are probably about on par with where I was before, but I'm sure they'll get a lot stronger. I am quite a fan of shita-tsukis though during kumite

anarki13 · 07-02-2006, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

Somehow I don't think the twisting is to cause friction. I'm thinking it's to add snap to the punch..

you are correct 100%! and i apologise!
i remember my Sempai saying the same a MILLION times about Shita-Tsuki (low rising punch) and Mawashi-Tsuki (I know! i think there's no such name, but i promise u, that's what i was taught it was.. its basically a hook, a curved punch from the side, like the ago-uchi and shita-tsuki but sideways, usually to the ribs or to the arms -the point just below the deltoid-.. if u know the name, please help!)

point is, he always said, add a little snap in the end, it gives more power..
and i apologise for my earlier mistake!

Osu.

powerof0ne · 07-02-2006, 05:06 PM

I also tend to do the 3/4 twist instead of the full twist that is usually seen in Goju, Shito, Wado, Shotokan, etc.

**Shokei Marcsui** · 07-02-2006, 11:15 PM

In your opinion does that make your punches shoot out a litte faster?

Sensation Black · 07-29-2006, 09:19 PM

are you guys just talking about the turning of the fist before the contact?

because if so i'm a little suprised because it is pretty normal in our karate lessons to do the tsuki like that.

in fact ist is one of the first things beginners learn to do.
to turn the fist in the last moment.

Aunty Ichigeki · 07-30-2006, 01:23 AM

I've also noticed a tendency for the elbow to rotate outwards as the fist rotates if you start the rotation too early - especially women (hate to say it) - if I notice a student 'punching around corners' I'll suggest they drill their punches with zero rotation for a while. Once the elbow is nice & tight it feels very natural to throw the rotation in at the last second.

BigAl · 07-30-2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensation Black

are you guys just talking about the turning of the fist before the contact?

because if so i'm a little suprised because it is pretty normal in our karate lessons to do the tsuki like that.

in fact ist is one of the first things beginners learn to do.
to turn the fist in the last moment.

It's actually more like turning the fist once you've just struck the opponent, so in essence you're "drilling" into them.

Sensation Black · 07-30-2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAl

It's actually more like turning the fist once you've just struck the opponent, so in essence you're "drilling" into them.

ok now i get what you mean but i don't really think that there is a benefit from it and if there is than it would be loosing a second you could use to start the next strike.

but i think the only way to find out if it makes the tsuki stronger is to test it on a partner. maybe there is one in your dojo who would allow to get himself striked with a tsuki two times and then tell if theres any difference.

BigAl · 07-31-2006, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensation Black

ok now i get what you mean but i don't really think that there is a benefit from it and if there is than it would be loosing a second you could use to start the next strike.

but i think the only way to find out if it makes the tsuki stronger is to test it on a partner. maybe there is one in your dojo who would allow to get himself striked with a tsuki two times and then tell if theres any difference.

The person who showed me is a sandan under Shihan John Farrell who showed him. He can do it fast and it adds a lot to the penetration. It's not like a slow steady motion, it's fast and explosive and it hurts about twice as much that way.

Sensation Black · 07-31-2006, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAl

The person who showed me is a sandan under Shihan John Farrell who showed him. He can do it fast and it adds a lot to the penetration. It's not like a slow steady motion, it's fast and explosive and it hurts about twice as much that way.

so you mean it is actually not to put more ko power into the strike but to make it just hurt a lot more on the skin for example?

**Shokei Marcsui** · 07-31-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sensaion black

so you mean it is actually not to put more ko power into the strike but to make it just hurt a lot more on the skin for example?

No. If you read in the previous responses, you'd have seen that we already established this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

Somehow I don't think the twisting is to cause friction. I'm thinking it's to add snap to the punch. Because you are not executing a punch by making contact then twisting your fist into the target. It seems that it works by twisting your fist just before you make contact.

I was explaining that the difference of instruction in shotokan and kyokushin is the timing of the "twist" when you punch. In shotokan, you do it as it leaves the chamber, then strike. In Kyokushin, I was taught to shoot it out then twist just before impact.

It would appear that this subtle motion allows you to have more snap into your punch, place more shoulder into it, and keeps your arm straight instead of bowing out like Auntie Ichigeki said.

Sensation Black · 07-31-2006, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

I was explaining that the difference of instruction in shotokan and kyokushin is the timing of the "twist" when you punch. In shotokan, you do it as it leaves the chamber, then strike. In Kyokushin, I was taught to shoot it out then twist just before impact.

i have some years expirience in shotokan too and it was here as well one of the first things the beginners learned, to turn the fist in the very last moment.
you did JKA shotokan didn't you? because if so you should have learned it in the same way i did.

RASor · 08-03-2006, 07:29 AM

Osu,

My analysis of 'drilling the punch' is to create more pain and penetration.

I would say that the technique is similar to pounding rice to powder. The method is to twist the mortar during impact to grind the rice and pulverize or powder the same. I observed that powdering rice by just crushin takes a longer time.

In kumite points are gained by shots or kicks that cause pain to your opponent or effect a desired result. So by twisting at impact not only is there penetration in one direction there is multi-directional force moving inwards that can cause a wider ripple than a forward force in one direction (applying vectors).

Osu!

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