Non Seiken striking in kumite

[niceguy]

It has occurred to me that mostly we seem to blast away at each other using closed fists during kumite. Friends of mine(non kyokushin) keep saying that we look like kickboxers(not happy with that comment ). I need some ammo to defend our fighting style. So for people in the know, why are techniques the following hardly used:
koken to the spleen,
shotei to the midriff,
forefinger or middle-finger fist to the floating ribs,
nukite to ribs or solar plexus.
sword hand striking to collarbone or ribs.

Now I can understand why some could be difficult for most beginners to execute
due to the lack of conditioned hands and insufficient practice but at an advanced level, pretty routine, no?

Ous!

[Kurisu]

I've used shuto sakotsu uchi komi to the shoulder and shuto hizo uchi to the ribs. The other techniques that you described may either take too long to execute (i.e. koken) or have a risk of causing injury if not executed properly.

For me, most of the time it's punch, punch, low kick. hehe.

[Shokei Marcsui]

I forget the terminology but one of the WKO (Intro to the strongest karate) videos talked about using the middle knuckle punch when punching to the ribs.

Perhaps subtleties like this one are not aware to the distant watcher.

[Bloke]

I have used Ryuto ken to the ribs round the back of the arm - works a treat.

[Spirit]

They are all used, maybe not in tourney and maybe not in every dojo of Kyokushin, but they are taught by most of the old dogs, Sensei's.

You see since Kyokushin has become main stream and then split into many factions the teaching as well the teaching of teachers change greatly from that of the 60's, 70's and early 80's.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by Spirit

old cats (women) Sensei's.

.

I'm not sure I can handle the feline connotations...if I can't be a bear, I'll be an old dog just like the rest of 'em.

[Shokei Marcsui]

That's okay seinchin.

You can be a bearcat

[Setsuna162]

A little off topic but what do you think about using teisho uchi (palm heel strike) in kickboxing?

[supergroup7]

I've used shuto sakotsu uchi to the shoulder and shuto hizo uchi to the ribs. I've also used shuto hizo uchi to the outer thigh.

I haven't used Nukite because my fingers aren't conditioned to withstand the impact.
Wouldn't a Shotei look, and act similar to a Seiken?

One thing that I've found is that Elbow, and knee strikes could be used more frequently in those moments when you find yourself in range.

[Nix]

Yeah, I use hiji and hiji otoshi fairly often. They are actually rather effective. Other than that, I just use seiken. Nukite is asking to be injured. I think the reason why nobody really uses them, are that they are too dangerous and not very effective to be worth the effort.

[Spirit]

I posted about using Nukite in kumite in another post... but I'll return to it again.
I use it all the time when sparring kids, children, weaker fighters who need to learn, etc.
It gives you (as the instructor) the ability to hit without the "hit me with a Punch" effect on a new student. Those that (new student) never been punched before it can really be something new and can take someone back a bit. Yes you need to learn to take a punch before you deliver one, but their is no harm in taking a few small steps to learn that important leasson, as for little kids 5-10 it is a great tool. Even though each are equal in the power (when used as equal) the effect of a new student or kids is a big difference to Them.

It also gives you 3-4" of more striking distance, as it hurts with less power (smaller object)

Also very effective on the bully of the dojo, drilling him (usually a male) can really dump on the ego of the bully... basically fixing the problem without communicating it (well without word communication that is)

As for all the others, use them as needed.... shotei is a great weapon to block and strike with same hand. very effctive against maewashi (chudan)

[Nix]

Good tips, Spirit-san. When I was an instructor, I did in fact lightly use nukite on kids who tried to jokearound with me. All in god fun, of course. But I need to do some more pushups on my fingers, before I can use it in kumite.

Originally Posted by Spirit

It also gives you 3-4" of more striking distance, as it hurts with less power (smaller object)

Actually, the force is the same, but the impact is greater, because it is more concentrated, thus it hurts more. Of course, this also means that the impact will be that greater when you hit your opponent with nukite, which it is essential that your fingersare extreemly well conditioned.

[DavidShinRicci]

I never used nukite, However nice downward puches to the shoulder between the inner deltoid and collar bone are very effective.

Don't worry about the Kickboxing comment.

They are just jealous...

Osu!

[Spirit]

loqi
its all about technique

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by niceguy

. So for people in the know, why are techniques the following hardly used:
koken to the spleen,
shotei to the midriff,
forefinger or middle-finger fist to the floating ribs,
nukite to ribs or solar plexus.
sword hand striking to collarbone or ribs.


Ous!

I think it is useful to think about the difference in what we see being used in non-contact vs full contact kumite. I have done a lot of non-contact, and a little bit of full-contact tournaments, and all the normal dojo- and grading-contact that we all do.

In contact sparring, the only hand configurations that I use for striking are seiken, nakayubi ippon-ken and shotei. The only place that I have ever pulled out techniques other than these is in non-contact tournaments. They used to (can't speak for now) pay stupid things like tettsui to the top of the head!!..so you would deliver what got paid.

Why is it like this? Partly custom and practice. I have been told that Sosai used to do a devastating double koken to the spleen (one hand spinning through after the other), but I have never seen this used for real.

I do use Koken for blocking, but it is really a transitional hand position than anything.

I think that when you are trying to throw rapid and seamless combinations, changing hand configuration has just not stood the test of benefits vs risks. So everybody picks a single, or minimally variable hand configuration, and holds it. Remember that non-contact styles don't have to actually configure their hand into a REAL weapon - they just have to make it look like one. We have a split second to turn our hand into a rock before delivering the full force of our muscles, bodyweight and chi into it. That is far more challenging.

It's also worth reflecting that some of the techniques require a completely different orientation of the arm, as well as the hand, so are clumsier to transition to. So, yes, we could do it, but the question would have to be "why". Trying not to look like a kick-boxer is not a good reason to complicate a clean kumite style, with a hand that can deliver whatever force is asked of it.

[BigAl]

One of the guys I used to train with before he moved had some powerful shoteis. The shoulder, biceps, ribs, and obliques were his favorite areas. I have seen the occasional shuto, but not very often. I've seen a few empis too, one person I saw sparring before and talked with after could flow pretty nicely from a chudan soto uke to an empi to the body. It was a somewhat risky move though, as it left him almost in a side facing stance.

Basically, the reason why you see so many seikens and tate tsukis is because they're easiest to deliver, do a lot of damage, and are simple but effective.

[jcbel]

I have personally used Shuto Hizo Uchi twice and it didn't feel all that effective to me - plus I got called up by a line judge for using an "illegal" technique! The ref sorted it out though, I heard him telling the line judge it's allowed while giving him the evil eye, lol...

Anyways I guess I just default to seiken because I think it's very easy to injure fingers during kumite, my Shihan used to tell me a story about how he'd break peoples' hands during kumite by walking into their punch (for those people who have kamae with open hands). Ouch.

[erni64]

Is it a mistake to use mainly kicks instead of punches in a dojo kumite ?
I'm 44 and 1.80 mts, and still have quite good kicks but was adviced to
use more seiken...

[hasbeen]

in knockdown fighting it is all about being practical and what really works,you have to remember you are not going to fight somebody who is going to let you hit them in the spleen with a hammer fist,or in the sternem with the palm of your hand.

i recommend at the next open tournament you get there early and watch inexperienced people like perhaps your friends who are calling kyokushin kickboxing get their heads knocked off.

take your friends with you and when you spot somebody trying this sort of thing look away if you are squeemish.

i guarantee this is the case, ask bloke or lucy what happend when an inexperienced fighter fought a russian... i am not as experienced as bloke but i knew within the first few seconds this guy was going to get seriously hurt and i have to say it was the most brutal knockdown i have ever seen...the proof of the pudding is in the eating......take them to the next tounament and be proud!

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by hasbeen

in knockdown fighting it is all about being practical and what really works,you have to remember you are not going to fight somebody who is going to let you hit them in the spleen with a hammer fist,or in the sternem with the palm of your hand.

i recommend at the next open tournament you get there early and watch inexperienced people like perhaps your friends who are calling kyokushin kickboxing get their heads knocked off.

take your friends with you and when you spot somebody trying this sort of thing look away if you are squeemish.

i guarantee this is the case, ask bloke or lucy what happend when an inexperienced fighter fought a russian... i am not as experienced as bloke but i knew within the first few seconds this guy was going to get seriously hurt and i have to say it was the most brutal knockdown i have ever seen...the proof of the pudding is in the eating......take them to the next tounament and be proud!

hasbeen,
your really starting to kick verbal ass, cool!!!!