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07-02-2008, 07:47 PM
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#21
*Blush* Thank you to both of you, Dent, and Vapor, for the kind words, and recognition.
I'm glad that my experiences, and opinion appears to be on the right track. 
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07-03-2008, 10:52 AM
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#22
Quote:
Now what was the topic again? Oh yeah Psychology of Training.
__________________
BOOK, DID SOMEONE SAY BBBBOOOOKKKK!!!!
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07-03-2008, 11:26 AM
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#23
mmm,
frustration setting in. I think I need to re-think this thread and explain it better. Personally not looking for the inner strength thing, not the same as what I'm talking about or should I say trying to talk about. OK I do a bit of dog work, not training but working with people who have issues with their dogs, barking, bitting etc... Now 100% of the time it is not the dog that is causing the action but the owner. They are giving out weak or poor energy that the "animal" is picking up and acting on. Empathy, weak personality, excitement, you name it all this effects the dogs actions in and out of the house and is bad for the dog, yet human continues to feed the dog this energy and can't figure out what to do. Yet when Shown that this is the issue less than half act on it even when they "say" they love their dog. Humans humanize their dog which the dogs mind does not understand it is not wired for that type of emotion. Dogs are smart animals, but they are wolves [99.062% I think it is] and they are a pack predator no matter how much we dress them up and love them they are still wolf.... Taking that lead, if a dog attach's a person is it the dogs fault, I say no it is not since most dogs act out of fear, Even if we don't see the fear nor understand the fear that they are seeing. As well dogs attach weak energy, this often shows itself when dog attach owner or children... Just because we don't understand it or see it does not mean it does not happen!!! Yet a balanced dog living in a pack [pack being a home] is a animal that needs limited verbal communication and follows the pack leader without need to tell it to. As a predator weak energy means easy kill which means survival, though dogs are domesticated, that does not mean the mind is and it is still wired that way. I'm not sure you'll full get this comparison, but it does have a profound correlations to each other. BUT this is the type of psychology that I'm trying to relate with Karate and train!! I use to foster greyhounds and with my own greyhounds I real never had to do much training with the new dogs once in the house, the new dogs followed the balanced pack which followed me. I could let these new greyhound run free in unfenced in yard and they would not leave the area, yet people who owned greyhounds for years could not do this. Why was it that I could do this with dogs I had in my home for 24-48 hours when others who "trained" their dogs, took them to other types training etc as well had their dogs for 1 to 10 years could not do this.....???????? Psychology and the understanding of how the exact psychology of that animals mind works. Now take that and set it to human mind and what do you have when you train, fight a balanced karateka Is this a better explanation ???????????
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07-03-2008, 11:29 AM
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#24
Er - No
Sorry mate - I haven't a clue what you're asking or looking for.
__________________
"It's better to be the dog than the lamp-post"
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07-03-2008, 11:40 AM
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#25
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Or by someone who is better skilled at putting thought to pen and paper.... I can teach it yet can't explain it in written words!!! frustration Last edited by Spirit; 07-04-2008 at 01:22 PM.
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07-03-2008, 11:43 AM
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#26
In other words, by understanding and maniulating the human psyché, you will be able to shape better karateka? Reading your greyhound story, doesn't it also have to do with respect?
__________________
Blackmail's such an ugly word. I prefer extortion -- the "x" makes it sound cool.
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07-03-2008, 12:04 PM
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#27
No the wolf mind does not understand respect that is a human trait and we so often do use human traits on animals that they don't understand and "think" they do or should.
It is lead or follow for a pack animal. Yes you can argue respect has a play in that type of environment, but it still is a human reflection not the animals. Take the example of when you come home and your dog jumps all over you... People assume that is a happy dog, yet it is a dog in excitement domination. But we can't see it because we feel so loved and missed our mind closes down on logic and open to elation and euphoria of being needed....
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07-03-2008, 01:00 PM
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#28
I think that I might be understanding the dog reference, Spirit. Please tell me if I have the right idea...
Dogs respond to the energy of their owner. If the owner has a weak, timid, fearful, uncertain, or anxious energy the dog will assume that it has to be the leader, therefore it will refuse to obey the directions of the owner. When placed into a pack situation, the new dog looks to the more established dogs to understand what is expected from it. The new dog quickly learns who is the Leader, and works towards gaining it's approval. You have noticed that many dog owners struggle to get control over their dog because they do not understand this concept of inner energy. Instead, they look at the behaviors in a human perspective. This confuses, and misguides the dog instead of achieving leadership position. The dog then takes over leadership position instead of seeing it's owner as lead dog. Then they have many difficulties controlling, and teaching their dog proper behavior. However, your knowledge of inner energy affecting outer behavior allows you to quickly handle an animal, and achieve success. I believe that you are saying that this knowledge of inner energy is transportable to karate training. Let me try to understand: When teaching a class, the students will respond to the Sensei's inner energy. The Sensei needs to have a strong, confident, committed, and secure energy which allows the students to accept directions. If the students notice weakness, and hesitation, the students will doubt what is being taught to them, and will mentally assume leadership position within their minds. This will expound since each student is assuming their own leadership position, and will make teaching the class even more difficult for that Sensei. A key factor towards training is the core group ( or pack) of higher belted students that respond to the Sensei's directions with confidence. The new students look towards these people, and copy their attitude, and behaviors. Good dojo training could be looked upon as similar to a good sled dog team, where all of the dogs pull together at the directions of the Husher.
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07-03-2008, 01:29 PM
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#29
I guess that makes sense, I just fail to see what it has to do with psychology.
__________________
Blackmail's such an ugly word. I prefer extortion -- the "x" makes it sound cool.
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07-03-2008, 02:26 PM
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#30
Quote:
 When we look at psychology, and studying how the mind works, many times we look at it in an evolved humanistic sense. Yes, our thinking is very convoluted, and complex due to our higher brain functions, but there is also the more "animalistic" side of us that is contained in the more primitive parts of our brain. There might be a tendency to ignore the contributions of our more baser side pushing them aside to prefer logical thought, but studies have shown that the primitive brain has an active, and central role to learning new things. "In this study, Miller, who is the Picower Professor of Neuroscience, and postdoctoral associate Anitha Pasupathy found that in monkeys, the striatum (the input structure of the basal ganglia) showed more rapid change in the learning process than the more highly evolved prefrontal cortex. Their results suggest that the basal ganglia first identify the rule, and then "train" the prefrontal cortex, which absorbs the lesson more slowly. "These findings suggest new ways of thinking about learning," Miller said. "They suggest that new learning isn't simply the smarter bits of our brain such as the cortex 'figuring things out.' Instead, we should think of learning as interaction between our primitive brain structures and our more advanced cortex. In other words, primitive brain structures might be the engine driving even our most advanced high-level, intelligent learning abilities," he said." To read more about this click here. To understand, and be able to manipulate the basic body, facial, and sound cues that naturally demand lead position would be of value to a Sensei. Also, we can add in the whole concept of positive energy, and how that fits in. For example, have you ever noticed that a person can play a piece of music perfectly, but it has no "soul" as we call it, than another person will come up, and do the exact same piece, and he will make it come alive. How? It is like there is an extra "energy" contained within that moment. We cannot put our finger on it, but we can recognize it, and name it when we feel it, and we know when it is absent. Perhaps that is our more primitive side of our brain recognizing something that our higher functions have no clue about. Perhaps this can happen to a Sensei. He enters the room with weak energy, and although he has much knowledge, and skill to offer, the students do not respond appropriately.. and he wonders "Why?" Just the idea of understanding how to achieve, and maintain the lead role, and how we can use this information can help with training in karate.
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07-03-2008, 03:03 PM
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#31
Osu!
I could see carryover in Kumite, with the duck syndrome being in effect there too. I think that certain personalities are going to react differently though, and when two alphas come together, sparks are going to fly. I think having the ability to take different points of view, and bring different intensities to interactions is more important than simple domination. "When two tigers fight, both lose." - Anon. Osu!
__________________
Train hard, train often! Look. Listen. Sweat!
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07-03-2008, 03:23 PM
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#32
Okay, I think I got it, though my brain nearly melted in the progress. It's not just about carrying that special aura, but how to manipulate the human mind in your ways and manners in order to achieve that special aura, yes? Very good, I shall take note of this while teaching. Have some rep.
On the other hand, Dent is also right. No two students are alike, and they learn in different ways, so the ability to be flexible is also needed. However, in a dojo, a student should also recognize the sempai as the alpha, otherwise order and discipline will crumble. Durrr, my brain is not good at performing at higher philosophical levels. Me need coffee now. (Apparently I need to spread some rep around. I'll try to get back to it later).
__________________
Blackmail's such an ugly word. I prefer extortion -- the "x" makes it sound cool.
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07-03-2008, 03:39 PM
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#33
Osu!
Is it possible that someone would rise to the position of a teacher of Kyokushin/ Ashihara/ Enshin/ other full contact or Knockdown Karate, either as Sensei or Sempai, without displaying those powerful leadership characteristics? I am going to use Sensei Gary Chamberlain as an example. He and I have never met in person. He is adamant that he will not strike a student to enforce discipline. He uses positive feedback to get the best from his members. He is polite and well spoken. I very much doubt that anyone in his classes has any question of who is in charge though. I see the same strength in a number of the other teachers on this board, from Bloke, to Seienchin, Ksan and several others (Quite a long list. There are a lot of good people on this board.). All without being in their classes. Between the positive personalities and self-imposed discipline, they have made themselves leaders and role models. Trying to pick apart the reasons for the success may be a worthwhile endeavor, but I think that we can get too wrapped up in the technical minutiae and miss the process. Osu!
__________________
Train hard, train often! Look. Listen. Sweat!
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07-03-2008, 03:55 PM
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#34
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 On the other hand, I've also had the delight of teachers who had that special aura of authority and respect about themselves, seemingly without even trying. People who could make 150 people instantly shut their mouths and straighten up, simply by entering the room. That's the way to do it, but I have yet to figure out how to imitate it...
__________________
Blackmail's such an ugly word. I prefer extortion -- the "x" makes it sound cool.
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07-03-2008, 03:59 PM
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#35
Osu!
Quote:
  Osu!
__________________
Train hard, train often! Look. Listen. Sweat!
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07-03-2008, 04:10 PM
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#36
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__________________
Blackmail's such an ugly word. I prefer extortion -- the "x" makes it sound cool.
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07-03-2008, 04:20 PM
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#37
Osu!
Quote:
Osu!
__________________
Train hard, train often! Look. Listen. Sweat!
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07-03-2008, 04:24 PM
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#38
Osu! Dent,
Kind words - thank you. I must admit that although I've never hit a woman or a child, I was a hard taskmaster for the fighters over the years. Coming back to the psychology - the bottom line (as I see it) is that part of the role of the instructor is to create a challenging environment. Members coming in are encouraged to raise their game and learn to push themselves when they train. Some have mental fortitude and sheer stubborness already and may be half way there, others need a nudge to get them started. In my experience, going at this too hard misses the point, as students then are trying hard just to please the instructor, not as a personal challenge. Are we pack animals? I don't think so. I understand about different brain stems etc, but I find that treating people as individuals and taking the time to find what motivates them works better for me. Even something as simple as asking them informally what they hope to achieve, giving honest feedback about where they are and suggesting how to bridge the gap. With some, it's still like trying to wake the dead (maybe I need more stripes before I can do that!) so they just drift along regardless. (There's a very convincing argument that the whole purpose of taking years to black belt is simply to weed these out!) Having said that, some coast along for years and then suddenly come to life, challenge themselves and train like demons for reasons unknown. I'm still no closer to answering Spirit's question. Gary
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"It's better to be the dog than the lamp-post" Last edited by GJEChamberlain; 07-03-2008 at 04:51 PM.
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07-03-2008, 10:36 PM
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