Knee Excersise

[grasshopper1486]

Hey guys i need some help/advise !!!!

I want a safe and very effective way to strengthen my knees do you have any suggestions. I do squats...the flatfoot ones and the hindu sqauts and i get kind of pain in my knees afterwards it's not muscle soreness pain it's a different kind of pain.....i don't know if i'm ovrreacting or you all get that pain also... but the thing is its not a hard pain its more of a kind of worrying irritating pain. Are there any other ways besides lunges and squats that i'm not aware about........and by the way whats the requirements to start training with ankle weights i was told that its not something to jump into....Whats the benchmark ?????

[alan]

osu!

I have also always had problems doing squats cause they caused pain in my knees. After spending some time focusing on the technique rather than "just doing as many squats as possible in a short period of time" I have overcome the problem. I have watched the crossfit demos and really put focus on the following areas and that has helped me a lot :-)

1. Straight back.
2. The heel never leaves the ground.
3. Feet straight over the knees.
4. Use the arms for balance and doing a natural movement.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by grasshopper1486

Hey guys i need some help/advise !!!!

I want a safe and very effective way to strengthen my knees do you have any suggestions. I do squats...the flatfoot ones and the hindu sqauts and i get kind of pain in my knees afterwards it's not muscle soreness pain it's a different kind of pain.....i don't know if i'm ovrreacting or you all get that pain also... but the thing is its not a hard pain its more of a kind of worrying irritating pain. Are there any other ways besides lunges and squats that i'm not aware about........and by the way whats the requirements to start training with ankle weights i was told that its not something to jump into....Whats the benchmark ?????

Can you tell us more about the type of pain? Where is it (I know in the knee, but is it at the back, down one side, behind the kneecap etc).

Does it hurt when you are actually doing the exercise squats etc, or only after?

Do you get pain from other things such as going down stairs?

Some information like this might give us a clue as to what is going wrong. Then we can be more helpful...

[Kansetsu]

I know the pain you are talking about...it's the type of pain that is in the middle of your knee joint right? It usually happens when you don't have good form when you are doing squats. How far are you going down? are you stopping at parallel to the floor? where are your foot positioned? where is the bar positioned? are you wrapping your knees? how heavy are you going? all these things influence the health of your knees.

This is what i recommend.

How far are you going down? You should be going all the way down (there's a term that we like to use and that is...A$$ to the ground). There is a very big misconception that if you go all the way down, it injures your knees. The answer to that is yes and no. Yes it will injure your knees if you go all the way down, and relax your body and knees. No it will not injure your knees if you keep your body and legs tense. That way it will prevent the lengthening of your knee tendons. If you only go to parallel, it actually puts more pressure on your knees and will cause injury.

Where are your foot positioned? Your feet should be slightly wider than your shoulder width. And your toes should be pointed outward. (Slightly Less than 45 Degree Angle)

How heavy are you going / Are you wrapping you Knees? You should wrap your knees with Elastic Knee Wraps. This will prevent your knees from shifting side to side and buckling under pressure (and since it's elastic, it will help you lift slightly). I usually wrap when i do 315 or more. If 225 Feels heavy to you, then wrap at 225. Feel the weight, and if it feels Heavy, then wrap. And also, ALWAYS use a belt when squatting.

Hope this helps you out.

[Nix]

I experience the same problem from time to time, but I've learnt to keep the pain in check. I normally don't notice anything, but sometimes, in periods with excessive practice, I start to feel the pain just under the kneecaps, and then I try to relax. There's an excercise called "rabbit jumps", where you sit on your toes in a squatting position, with your hands behind your head and jump small jumps forward. This excercise busts my knees immediatly, even if I haven't had any pain in years. I get the same pain if I run on a regular basis, but far from beeing as painful as the rabbit jumps.

Originally Posted by Kansetsu

You should be going all the way down (there's a term that we like to use and that is...A$$ to the ground). There is a very big misconception that if you go all the way down, it injures your knees. The answer to that is yes and no. Yes it will injure your knees if you go all the way down, and relax your body and knees. No it will not injure your knees if you keep your body and legs tense. That way it will prevent the lengthening of your knee tendons. If you only go to parallel, it actually puts more pressure on your knees and will cause injury.

I've been taught, and experienced, otherwise. For one, I would be very careful about going further down than your thighs beeing in a horisontal position (parallel with the ground). That puts great pressure on the knee, and causes horrible pain to me. If someone has a knee problem, or have got a lot of weight (say if you got a partner on your back), I would say half-squats is best.

Originally Posted by Kansetsu;60696[B

Where are your foot positioned?[/b] Your feet should be slightly wider than your shoulder width. And your toes should be pointed outward. (Slightly Less than 45 Degree Angle)

I've always been taught that your feet should be a shoulder width apart, and parallel. I find this is a much more effective way.

An important thing when doing squats is that your shin should be vertical at all times - you are not supposed to bend them forward, as many do. Imagine that you are seating yourself on a chair. You can lean your torso forwards as counter balance, as long as you remember to keep your back straight.

[seienchin]

Grasshopper 1486. I think that what is becoming apparent is that there are many, many causes of knee pain. The treatment of some will actually make other kinds worse.

Internet diagnosis is risky, internet treatment even worse.

If your knees are causing you problems with activity, first step should be to get an expert to look at your technique. If there is not a technique issue, you might actually have a problem in your knee that requires special management.

[Deaken]

Whenever I have had physio for my knees they always put me on the stationary bike. It's supposidly a great way to build even strenght between the opposing muscles (which often an imbalance of strenght or tightness) will cause the knee cap to pull out of place during certain movements (like squats) and rub the wrong way causing pain.

I agree that internet diagnosis is not a good idea. Have the knee checked out and then get a good sports physiotherapist to help you learn strengthening and stretching techniques that will help address the problems.

[grasshopper1486]

Originally Posted by alan

osu!
2. The heel never leaves the ground.
.

THe heel never leaves the ground ????? So what about hindu sqauts ??? it is a tried and proven technique..that many people swear by...and the heels do leave the ground...so what's up with that ????

[grasshopper1486]

Originally Posted by seienchin

Can you tell us more about the type of pain? Where is it (I know in the knee, but is it at the back, down one side, behind the kneecap etc).

Does it hurt when you are actually doing the exercise squats etc, or only after?

Do you get pain from other things such as going down stairs?

Some information like this might give us a clue as to what is going wrong. Then we can be more helpful...

Well here's the deal.... The pain is not realy in the knee cap region. It's a kind of pain inside the knee, kind of in the joint itself and sometimes i get a kind of pain behind my knees and according to how hard or what i do sometimes i get the same pain just over the knee cap

You asked if there's pain going down stairs ?? that's a no...but my country is kind of hilly and i got a couple of friends that live high up so i got to climb to get to them.....sometimes when i go up and i'm resting i do get pain (not excrutiating but it's there) but when i'm coming down i can really feel the stress on the joint (i feel sorry for it at times)

[grasshopper1486]

Another thing ......do you guys knees give off a kind of cracking/grinding sensation when doing squats ??? what the heck is that ???

[seienchin]

Grasshopper - just a gentle nudge- in this forum we avoid the use of any profanity or cursing, even with letters substituted. Your meaning is perfectly clear without the offending words

[anaticula]

Originally Posted by Nix

I've been taught, and experienced, otherwise. For one, I would be very careful about going further down than your thighs beeing in a horisontal position (parallel with the ground). That puts great pressure on the knee, and causes horrible pain to me. If someone has a knee problem, or have got a lot of weight (say if you got a partner on your back), I would say half-squats is best.

I'm totally with Kansetsu on this. There should not be more pressure induced on the knees by going deeper, unless one releases the tension in their legs or raises the heels in the bottom position. Deep is good basic technique, shallow is for specialized training (e.g. downhill skiiers)

Too bad about the pain you seem to experience. Have you had a (real) powerlifter instructor looking at your technique?

Originally Posted by Nix

I've always been taught that your feet should be a shoulder width apart, and parallel. I find this is a much more effective way.

An important thing when doing squats is that your shin should be vertical at all times - you are not supposed to bend them forward, as many do. Imagine that you are seating yourself on a chair. You can lean your torso forwards as counter balance, as long as you remember to keep your back straight.

What I've learn't of the width of feet is that it is of much less importance than insuring that the knees goes in the direction your feet point in when you squat! if your feet points slightly outwards, so should your knees. Otherwise, we will get a rotating motion in the knee joint, rather than just a bending motion. As long as one does this, adjust the width to what feels best, I think.

And about the shins, I've heard the "keep the shins vertical" mantra a few times as well, but I cannot possibly make that work in my engineering head. Even if I fold myself double, I cannot position my centre of gravity in front of my heels if my shins go straight up. They need to move forward, approximately aligned with my toes. I find it much easier just to focus on maintaining the heels on the ground.

Originally Posted by grasshopper1486

THe heel never leaves the ground ????? So what about hindu sqauts ??? it is a tried and proven technique..that many people swear by...and the heels do leave the ground...so what's up with that ????

Many places where you can read about hindu squats mention that it creates more stress in the knee joints, thus not recommending using barbells in this excercise.

[Nix]

Originally Posted by anaticula

I'm totally with Kansetsu on this. [snip snip]Too bad about the pain you seem to experience. Have you had a (real) powerlifter instructor looking at your technique?

I did it differently for many years (bent my shins forwards), and was corrected. I thought the "vertical shin"-rule was difficult too, and I did refer to several physical laws when I protested. I did still follow the corrections, and my squats works much better today. I don't do weight lifting, but I assume the excercise is the same without weights.

[Kansetsu]

OSU Nix,

Squats with Weights is a lot different than squats without weights. Bending forward when doing squats with weights (even if you have your back straight) is looking for injury. When squatting with weights, if you bend forward too much, you strain your lower back because all of the weights transfers directly to your lower back.

I guess if you do squats to parallel without weights, you can keep your shins vertical, but if you add weights to it, get in the correct position, and then go lower than parallel, then to me, it is impossible to keep my shins vertical.

OSU anaticula!

You are totally correct about the position of the feet and the width of your legs (remember Tom Platz? He has a very Narrow Stand with parallel foot position and he is a monster in squats), however, to the beginner lifters, a standard should be enforced till they find their grove and become more experienced with the proper form of squats.

The Slightly wider than the shoulder width, and foot pointing outward will give the squatter a more solid foundation to push up against. Closer you are less stable you become. Also, another note is that if you go too wide, you will eventually end up squatting more with your glutes and hams than your quads.

OSU!

Note: As i read other people's inputs, there are a lot of different views and experiences with their workouts in squats. When doing squats without weights (only using body weight), one can do a lot of things without that much risk of injury. However, if you add additional weights with a barbell on your shoulders, Form becomes the HIGHEST priority, and squatting is a lot less forgiving.

[grasshopper1486]

Originally Posted by seienchin

Grasshopper - just a gentle nudge- in this forum we avoid the use of any profanity or cursing, even with letters substituted. Your meaning is perfectly clear without the offending words

Sorry, it won't happen again....peace !!!!

[grasshopper1486]

I've tried that "shin vertical" stuff and it is extremely d...d..di...difficult to achieve...the natural way is for me to go down and my shins automatically lean forward..ive tried to keep my shins straight but to no avail...is it really possible

[grasshopper1486]

And for the record...i do not do sqauts with weights..i just do it naturally with my own bodyweight...

[Kansetsu]

Originally Posted by grasshopper1486

I've tried that "shin vertical" stuff and it is extremely d...d..di...difficult to achieve...the natural way is for me to go down and my shins automatically lean forward..ive tried to keep my shins straight but to no avail...is it really possible

OSU!

It is possible to obtain the "shin vertical" technique. This can be done without additional weight on your back, only going half way down (meaning your thighs are parallel to the ground) and you must counter balance your butt weight with your upper body (meaning you have to lean forward, almost bending yourself in half. This way was the only way for me to achieve the 'Shin Vertical' squat.

OSU!